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B-737 Cargo Plane down in Hawaii

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B-737 Cargo Plane down in Hawaii

Old 3rd Jul 2021, 20:18
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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This female controller always stepping on the crew's transmission is very frustrating to hear.
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Old 3rd Jul 2021, 20:30
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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WHBM,

That's the flag of the State of Hawaii. The Union Jack is incorporated into the upper left!

Apparently, I can't attach an image for you, sorry.

Edit: to be clear, the patch itself is an amalgam of images, the base of which is the Hawaii flag. Then overlaid by Coast Guard crests, and so on.
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Old 3rd Jul 2021, 20:46
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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The stepping on transmissions was rather weird. While the emergency aircraft was still transmitting, she was issuing instructions reacting to their transmissions. Is this the impact of managing several frequencies at once, or adrenaline after an emergency (and the cognitive dissonance of missing those previous two calls coming home to roost)?
In any case, hindsight suggests they probably shoulda taken her up on the immediate return. Here's hoping they're both okay.
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Old 3rd Jul 2021, 21:56
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Dinger, bear in mind the "emergency" aircraft never declared a mayday and never made its situation clear so how could the Controller possibly react correctly?
Additionally do you really suppose (I take it you aren't a pilot...) that with a ditching in prospect the crew were the least bit interested in what the "contoller" thought or wanted them to do and weren't doing what was needed anyway?
It'll be interesting to see why both engines failed though...There's a lot more to this story to come, so let's reserve judgement until the facts become clear.
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Old 3rd Jul 2021, 22:35
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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I fully recognize this is not important for the final investigation, but it really surprises me i've never heard in the entire ATC comms the words "Pan Pan" or "Mayday"...i really wish all the best for the pilots.
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Old 3rd Jul 2021, 23:21
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Chiefttp

I mean, it is not like there is some international organization regarding civil aviation that has some globally known and generally well accepted standard phraseology for declaring an emergency... .

I know, I know, too much sarcasm and being obnoxious, apologies. But it definitely strikes me as very odd to not at least start the conversation with "Rhoades 810 is declaring an emergency".
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Old 3rd Jul 2021, 23:45
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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B2N2

There was no "climb out", it all happened just after take-off.
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Old 4th Jul 2021, 00:12
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Saying “Mayday” or not would hardly have affected the outcome. Commenting from afar about U.S. domestic practice isn’t helpful. There are plenty of things the North Americans do differently, yet, against all odds, they seem to enjoy some aviation successes. (S/)

The crew did declare an emergency and the controller did organise a rescue, but it wasn’t pretty to listen to.
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Old 4th Jul 2021, 01:36
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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I think it is totally unacceptable for a major International airport like Honolulu, to only have one controller on duty. The Fire Truck has to call on Tower because there is no one on ground, are you kidding
Yes things slow down at night.....until they don't

The poor lone controller had a lot to do in addition to talking to the airplane, I would cut her some slack for someone who was undoubtedly task saturated.
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Old 4th Jul 2021, 04:31
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The pilots immediately declared an emergency. "Rhoades 810, we have an emergency. Standby." It's hard to hear and the tower obviously didn't.
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Old 4th Jul 2021, 04:54
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Has it been reported anywhere how deep the wreck would be? ie how difficult would it be to retrieve the boxes…
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Old 4th Jul 2021, 05:39
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Originally Posted by Flava Saver
Has it been reported anywhere how deep the wreck would be? ie how difficult would it be to retrieve the boxes…
Yeah it has been. It can quickly become VERY deep off of Hawaii but that apparently should not be big issue here: "An hour later, rescuers found the two clinging to packages and parts of the plane in about 150 feet (46 meters) of water several miles off Oahu, authorities said."
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Old 4th Jul 2021, 06:21
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This was more than a few minor injuries. The pilot they reached after the rear of the aircraft submerged was not alert an oriented, was admitted to the ICU in critical condition.
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Old 4th Jul 2021, 06:33
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If the Live ATC was anything to go by then the quality of the transmissions from the aircraft was not very good. I think the Controller (why does it have to be preceded by female?) did a very good job in difficult circumstances. Also simply stating you have an emergency is not the same as stating "Mayday Mayday Mayday" That gets everyone's attention and gives the Controller an unambiguous scenario to work with.
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Old 4th Jul 2021, 08:06
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The word mayday is effective at tuning everyones attention to a “life threatening emergency”, particularly the controller.

“Declaring an emergency” is not standard even for the FAA and has been used by US crews to describe everything from a minor fuel transfer fault to a wing falling off. We probably wont know if the controller was a little more ambivalent towards the 737 situation because a mayday call was not given however I suspect in this and other situations it may have been a factor.

American RT is not great and has bitten them on the ass before. A recent example being the RJ cockpit fire in DEN where the controller did not understand “roll the trucks” and did not respond to the emergency appropriately as a result.

This will not be the first time the FAA again reiterate the need for standard RT procedures.
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Old 4th Jul 2021, 08:37
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I suspect that calling it as an emergency rather than a mayday situation reflects the fact that they initially regarded a single engine failure as an annoyance to throw a checklist at - which, to be fair training and ETOPS thinking confirms.

At such low altitude though, scrutiny of the second engine and fuel situation would be the first 'survival' priority - Once they had the first clue that they weren't able to continue the climb as expected for OEI they should have immediately focussed on the fastest return vs nearest landing.
And yes Mayday might also have cleared the frequency a bit

Last edited by Jetstream67; 4th Jul 2021 at 08:38. Reason: typo
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Old 4th Jul 2021, 09:15
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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I suspect that calling it as an emergency rather than a mayday situation reflects the fact that they initially regarded a single engine failure as an annoyance to throw a checklist at - which, to be fair training and ETOPS thinking confirms.
I wouldn't have even got my basic PPL without demonstrating Mayday, Pan, and which means what. I wonder what US crews do in their Sim sessions.
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Old 4th Jul 2021, 09:37
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chiefttp
Most US crews flying domestically (to include Hawaii) declare an “Emergency” as opposed to Mayday. If I were outside the US I’d use “Mayday” inside I’d use “Emergency” they are interchangeable. Perhaps the terminology should be standardized. The Pilot did declare an “Emergency” but too much talking on the ATC frequency garbled up his transmission.
It is standardized: see the AIM on the FAA website here. It's just that there is a deep-rooted cultural aversion to applying the standard.
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Old 4th Jul 2021, 11:51
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Originally Posted by foobark
The pilots immediately declared an emergency. "Rhoades 810, we have an emergency. Standby." It's hard to hear and the tower obviously didn't.
Which is precisely why the global standard is MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY, not mumble blur ten unreadable ve unreadble cy.
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Old 4th Jul 2021, 12:01
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Anyone who thinks the correct phraseology isn't important should listen to the Hudson tape again - it took an agonising age before the controller tumbled to the fact that this was a catastrophe in waiting and not just an inconvenient birdstrike - entirely down to shoddy RT. It's all well and good saying the crew were under stress (!) but 'we're in the Hudson' or 'roll the trucks' is about as unhelpful a transmission as it is possible to imagine if you want to convey a sense of urgency. Do they not do Human Factors and communication studies in FAA land?
Thre is simply no substitute for using the correct prowords in an emergency even if the national habit is to babble like a three-badge budgie the rest of the time.
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