BA's pay offer!
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: sussex
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NotSo;
I wasn't talking about the aviation world, I was talking about BA. I do understand that some long-serving long-haul people in the company are unable to tell the difference however.
I also didn't suggest changing the whole way it's run. If you read carefully I am simply putting forward a proposal which could be considered as part of our long-term pay negotiation; a simplified and fairer system of duty-pay.
There is no industrial "dispute" that I am aware of just now. Please come back with a sensible counter-arguement as WWW suggests, anything else unconnected with the title of the thread is a bit boring.
Bronco;
Thank you. Is it correct then that other than the DOA all other allowances are the same for each destination? I was of the belief that there were lunch and dinner allowances which also varied. I'm not fully briefed, but I thought that the allowances on a Tokyo were significantly more than most could sensibly spend, whereas on some African trips you will often end up spending the lot. This is from a few skippers who are ex-RHSLH now at LGW.
My point was that if this were the case, it would be fairer to have the hourly system, then just one overnight payment for each day as a "top-up" to account for these differences, so the "excess", if you like, could be similar.
I wasn't talking about the aviation world, I was talking about BA. I do understand that some long-serving long-haul people in the company are unable to tell the difference however.
I also didn't suggest changing the whole way it's run. If you read carefully I am simply putting forward a proposal which could be considered as part of our long-term pay negotiation; a simplified and fairer system of duty-pay.
There is no industrial "dispute" that I am aware of just now. Please come back with a sensible counter-arguement as WWW suggests, anything else unconnected with the title of the thread is a bit boring.
Bronco;
Thank you. Is it correct then that other than the DOA all other allowances are the same for each destination? I was of the belief that there were lunch and dinner allowances which also varied. I'm not fully briefed, but I thought that the allowances on a Tokyo were significantly more than most could sensibly spend, whereas on some African trips you will often end up spending the lot. This is from a few skippers who are ex-RHSLH now at LGW.
My point was that if this were the case, it would be fairer to have the hourly system, then just one overnight payment for each day as a "top-up" to account for these differences, so the "excess", if you like, could be similar.
Last edited by JONSV; 27th Aug 2002 at 21:57.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: UK
Age: 54
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JONSV,
Sorry if this is repetitive from before but I've copied and pasted from a BALPA thread...
<WRT swapping allowances for hourly rate - no way! For a start a Capt told me that the history of allowances being such a high proportion of mainline pay stems from the 70's (I think). When public sector pay demands were causing inflation the Government decided BA's flying staff pay rise be masked in allowance rises rather than basic salary rises which would trigger more demands from other public sector industries. So you see that the allowances are not really meant to be subsistence only - historically the intention was that we would always save a bit. Furthermore, the allowances allow us to live a little where ever we end up be it in Entebe or Narita. This job is getting less social by the day, we don't need the flight deck delsey dining like half of the CC in these expensive places. As a junior lad I would end up in the expensive places all the time whilst the senior boys developed a sudden fondness of cheap, no jet lag africa!
So if they want to get rid of allowances give me a 40% pay rise so that I can afford that £6 beer in Hong Kong. >
Having done my fair share of Africa, yep its possible to spend all your allowances if you eat in the hotel, have a few rowdy nights and do some activites. Same applies in NRT, thats why its not as social a trip, people (I've heard) go to the truck and eat in cheaper places cos its worth saving the allowances whereas in africa its not worth scrimping and cutting corners to save £.
I think that you have misunderstood Notso and myself where we have stressed that sticking to the script and being united will count for more than anything else. If we stick together we can get what we deserve/want/need. However, your points are worthy of a mention for future debates - I think the PSG team have enough on their plate trying to deal with anti pilot mgmt without "too many cooks" throwing their ideas in and clouding the issue.
Cheers
Sorry if this is repetitive from before but I've copied and pasted from a BALPA thread...
<WRT swapping allowances for hourly rate - no way! For a start a Capt told me that the history of allowances being such a high proportion of mainline pay stems from the 70's (I think). When public sector pay demands were causing inflation the Government decided BA's flying staff pay rise be masked in allowance rises rather than basic salary rises which would trigger more demands from other public sector industries. So you see that the allowances are not really meant to be subsistence only - historically the intention was that we would always save a bit. Furthermore, the allowances allow us to live a little where ever we end up be it in Entebe or Narita. This job is getting less social by the day, we don't need the flight deck delsey dining like half of the CC in these expensive places. As a junior lad I would end up in the expensive places all the time whilst the senior boys developed a sudden fondness of cheap, no jet lag africa!
So if they want to get rid of allowances give me a 40% pay rise so that I can afford that £6 beer in Hong Kong. >
Having done my fair share of Africa, yep its possible to spend all your allowances if you eat in the hotel, have a few rowdy nights and do some activites. Same applies in NRT, thats why its not as social a trip, people (I've heard) go to the truck and eat in cheaper places cos its worth saving the allowances whereas in africa its not worth scrimping and cutting corners to save £.
I think that you have misunderstood Notso and myself where we have stressed that sticking to the script and being united will count for more than anything else. If we stick together we can get what we deserve/want/need. However, your points are worthy of a mention for future debates - I think the PSG team have enough on their plate trying to deal with anti pilot mgmt without "too many cooks" throwing their ideas in and clouding the issue.
Cheers
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Kennel
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The attitude of some on here of "the world owes me a living because I am a pilot" is sickening. The state of the industry around the world has gone to c*@p and instead of demanding massive payrises you lot should be gratefull you have jobs in the first place. 
Just to remind you what its like in some other airlines which are better run than BA then look at this from the c.e.o of American Transair.
Open Letter from George Mikelsons
State of the Company
August 23, 2002
My Dear Fellow Employees,
Over the last two weeks, I have attempted to be open and up front with you by honestly assessing the state of the airline industry and ATA's situation in particular. As we move forward, I intend to continue to inform you of our decisions and the steps we must take to ensure our viability and long-term competitiveness. Some of the decisions we make will be painful and unpopular. However, I can assure you that they have been well thought out and are vital to our survival.
You need to be aware of the following decisions:
• This week we announced the removal of our L-1011s from scheduled service. These planes have served us well but the demands of scheduled service require the efficiency of our 757 and 737 aircraft. For now the L-10s will be held for our military business only.
• As part of our review of budgeted expenses, we have determined that it is essential to reduce our employee count. Even though the final numbers have not yet been determined, we anticipate eliminating about eight percent of our budgeted payroll. I emphasize budgeted headcount because the first place we are looking at is open positions. While we think we can save a lot by not filling openings, we know it will not be enough. We will have to furlough some employees, which will be very painful. Each division is currently working out its plan so this difficult process will begin and end very soon.
• We must extend the wage freeze beyond the expected end date of September 30. I understand the burden this places on all of you, but frankly, we just don't have a choice. I'm not saying it will last another year and I hope it will not. Our top priority, however, has to be saving the jobs of 7,000 people and our company, not just their raises.
• We are eliminating all non-essential cash expenditures. For example, we will not spend money even on a Christmas party this year. I hate doing this because, like you, I really look forward to the Indy base party.
There are a lot of other ideas that we are examining and thinking through. Some of the savings will be big, some small. We need every nickel. I can't promise you that this will be easy. In fact, it will be very difficult. I can promise you that I will let you know when decisions are made and what their impact will be on all of us. Everything is on the table and all suggestions are welcome.
George
Just to remind you what its like in some other airlines which are better run than BA then look at this from the c.e.o of American Transair.
Open Letter from George Mikelsons
State of the Company
August 23, 2002
My Dear Fellow Employees,
Over the last two weeks, I have attempted to be open and up front with you by honestly assessing the state of the airline industry and ATA's situation in particular. As we move forward, I intend to continue to inform you of our decisions and the steps we must take to ensure our viability and long-term competitiveness. Some of the decisions we make will be painful and unpopular. However, I can assure you that they have been well thought out and are vital to our survival.
You need to be aware of the following decisions:
• This week we announced the removal of our L-1011s from scheduled service. These planes have served us well but the demands of scheduled service require the efficiency of our 757 and 737 aircraft. For now the L-10s will be held for our military business only.
• As part of our review of budgeted expenses, we have determined that it is essential to reduce our employee count. Even though the final numbers have not yet been determined, we anticipate eliminating about eight percent of our budgeted payroll. I emphasize budgeted headcount because the first place we are looking at is open positions. While we think we can save a lot by not filling openings, we know it will not be enough. We will have to furlough some employees, which will be very painful. Each division is currently working out its plan so this difficult process will begin and end very soon.
• We must extend the wage freeze beyond the expected end date of September 30. I understand the burden this places on all of you, but frankly, we just don't have a choice. I'm not saying it will last another year and I hope it will not. Our top priority, however, has to be saving the jobs of 7,000 people and our company, not just their raises.
• We are eliminating all non-essential cash expenditures. For example, we will not spend money even on a Christmas party this year. I hate doing this because, like you, I really look forward to the Indy base party.
There are a lot of other ideas that we are examining and thinking through. Some of the savings will be big, some small. We need every nickel. I can't promise you that this will be easy. In fact, it will be very difficult. I can promise you that I will let you know when decisions are made and what their impact will be on all of us. Everything is on the table and all suggestions are welcome.
George
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: London
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dogsnutz,
poor, poor American Transair employees. You didn't get a Christmas party.
Well, hands up anyone at BA who has been to a BA funded Christmas party - nope, I thought not. The only people who get those are, yes you guessed, Waterside employees.
In the grand scheme of things we are fed up of decades of shafting (although I myself have only experienced a few years of it). Every airline employee has been hard hit after Sept 11th - BA employees have had years of it before that fateful day. We don't think the world owes us a living because we are pilots. We think our employer owes us a living because we work damn hard for it.
We at BA have taken head reductions, fleet cutbacks, pay freezes and cuts in 'non-essential' items and lots, lots more, however many of our workforce are still awaiting the rewards for 'sharing the pain' after the Gulf War, yet between now and then BA has experienced some of its highest ever profits. It patted the directors on the back, gave them wodges of cash and then when the 'uniforms' (and believe me, that is not a term of endearment in BA) asked for a bit they said 'Sorry, none left'.
BA could have nipped this problem in the bud by paying a reasonable living wage to start with. Then when the poo hit the fan last year BA would have had pilots who accepted their lot.
In the meantime Dogsnutz, if you can think of a reason for accepting a relative pay cut every year, even in those years when a company makes record profits, please let us all in on the secret.
poor, poor American Transair employees. You didn't get a Christmas party.
Well, hands up anyone at BA who has been to a BA funded Christmas party - nope, I thought not. The only people who get those are, yes you guessed, Waterside employees.
In the grand scheme of things we are fed up of decades of shafting (although I myself have only experienced a few years of it). Every airline employee has been hard hit after Sept 11th - BA employees have had years of it before that fateful day. We don't think the world owes us a living because we are pilots. We think our employer owes us a living because we work damn hard for it.
We at BA have taken head reductions, fleet cutbacks, pay freezes and cuts in 'non-essential' items and lots, lots more, however many of our workforce are still awaiting the rewards for 'sharing the pain' after the Gulf War, yet between now and then BA has experienced some of its highest ever profits. It patted the directors on the back, gave them wodges of cash and then when the 'uniforms' (and believe me, that is not a term of endearment in BA) asked for a bit they said 'Sorry, none left'.
BA could have nipped this problem in the bud by paying a reasonable living wage to start with. Then when the poo hit the fan last year BA would have had pilots who accepted their lot.
In the meantime Dogsnutz, if you can think of a reason for accepting a relative pay cut every year, even in those years when a company makes record profits, please let us all in on the secret.
BA Boss
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,914
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mjenkinsblackdog, we have tried in BA the Australian convict trade in reverse. We brought this Oztralian over here and shackled him in Boardroom handcuffs. I gather whilst everybody thinks he's running the show, he's not! There is a superannuated 70 year old really running things and pulling the strings, and only working 1/2 day a week! When asked at an AGM why it was OK for him to stay at his age when his crews were compulsorily turfed out at 55 and apparently lived under a different set of rules to Boardmembers, he mumbled something about 'different circumstances'. Whilst we have been hard on Skippy, he has been manacled, and we hear has been dreaming of the days of going back to work for a previous employer. Perhaps what we really needed was Skippy unleashed over here!
And Dogsnutz- what possible relevance ATA's problems have to BA escapes me. Refresh me- is this some charter outfit doing ad hoc work whenever, wherever? It would be interesting to compare paychecks for equivalent positions. BA has been experiencing very tight pay control for 10 years. I'm actually barely any better off in money terms since 1995 (therefore a LOT worse of in real terms), despite now flying a 747-400 v. 737- all this in the same time frame when Board remuneration has increased in BA by record amounts. This year we are heading for a pay cut, as last year and the year before that (in real terms). That is why BA patience is worn out, so may I suggest it is a little disingenuous for you to try and interfere and deflect teh BA pilots argument? In other words, tough for ATA, but you are a very long way away!
And Dogsnutz- what possible relevance ATA's problems have to BA escapes me. Refresh me- is this some charter outfit doing ad hoc work whenever, wherever? It would be interesting to compare paychecks for equivalent positions. BA has been experiencing very tight pay control for 10 years. I'm actually barely any better off in money terms since 1995 (therefore a LOT worse of in real terms), despite now flying a 747-400 v. 737- all this in the same time frame when Board remuneration has increased in BA by record amounts. This year we are heading for a pay cut, as last year and the year before that (in real terms). That is why BA patience is worn out, so may I suggest it is a little disingenuous for you to try and interfere and deflect teh BA pilots argument? In other words, tough for ATA, but you are a very long way away!
Last edited by Notso Fantastic; 28th Aug 2002 at 10:17.
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: LHR
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe a silly question, but why are almost all attacks in the thread aimed at BA Management? Who are THEY exactly?
Is it all people with in the organisation above the grade of A7 or even A5, should we do away with every single one?
If you guys are going to slag off people, why not quit with the generalisations and name the names or positions of those people whom you think are causing the downfall of the company and making pilots live below the poverty line.
My MG and SM and GM all contribute massivly to the sucess and continued operation of BA. They earn their wages through 12 hour days and bloody hard work, as do I.
Let's not hear any more cr@p about bad management - who are the bad managers and why. Generalisations are only useful to children and morons.
C&B
Is it all people with in the organisation above the grade of A7 or even A5, should we do away with every single one?
If you guys are going to slag off people, why not quit with the generalisations and name the names or positions of those people whom you think are causing the downfall of the company and making pilots live below the poverty line.
My MG and SM and GM all contribute massivly to the sucess and continued operation of BA. They earn their wages through 12 hour days and bloody hard work, as do I.
Let's not hear any more cr@p about bad management - who are the bad managers and why. Generalisations are only useful to children and morons.
C&B
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London, England
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
C + B - I put the blame on our Chairman and board. Skippy should be allowed to run the airline without his hands being tied behind his back. Some blame must also be put on the Flt Ops/ pilot managers, who seem all too keen to put the boot in to their fellow pilots, in exchange for a bit more cash.
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: LHR
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You could only get sued if what you were saying was not true. If you honestly believe and have proof that a person is actively contributing to the downfall of the company and your wages then you should feel free to name them and shame them.
Otherwise just bleating on about THEM or the 10,000 overemployed people or THE MANAGEMENT, just get's boring, and is pointless.
:o
Plus if you think you can get sued on an anonymous and open fourm then this country has gone truly mad! No wonder 54% of UK citizens what to live in another country!
C&B
Otherwise just bleating on about THEM or the 10,000 overemployed people or THE MANAGEMENT, just get's boring, and is pointless.
:oPlus if you think you can get sued on an anonymous and open fourm then this country has gone truly mad! No wonder 54% of UK citizens what to live in another country!
C&B
Last edited by Crash_and_Burn; 28th Aug 2002 at 12:49.
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: LHR
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hot Wings,
I do agree that the Board do set the tone for the company, and unfortunatley we still have to live with Aylings Legacy.
But do the board set your wages? Or is it the economic climate? Do the board hire 10,000 usless employees? or is it good intentioned people, who have no business sense?
We are also unfortunate that the UK does not have a a Hire and Fire culture, which might make us more secure in our jobs but when it comes to trying to save costs, makes it a damn nightmare.
The whole company is having a tough time, and everyone who works for it has a mortgage to pay and a life to live. We all want it to get better and at the same time earn more money. sometimes it is not possible!
It annoys me when people slag off thier co-workers without even bothering to find out what they do and how they contribute.
C&B
I do agree that the Board do set the tone for the company, and unfortunatley we still have to live with Aylings Legacy.
But do the board set your wages? Or is it the economic climate? Do the board hire 10,000 usless employees? or is it good intentioned people, who have no business sense?
We are also unfortunate that the UK does not have a a Hire and Fire culture, which might make us more secure in our jobs but when it comes to trying to save costs, makes it a damn nightmare.
The whole company is having a tough time, and everyone who works for it has a mortgage to pay and a life to live. We all want it to get better and at the same time earn more money. sometimes it is not possible!
It annoys me when people slag off thier co-workers without even bothering to find out what they do and how they contribute.
C&B
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,914
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<<Plus if you think you can get sued on an anonymous and open fourm then this country has gone truly mad!>>
Well mad it must be because you most certainly can. The administrators of the bulletin board bear ALL responsibility for the repercussions of what is said there. They will obviously try and defray some of the responsibility to the person who said it (and whose email address is known and can be traced to the person responsible). So with all you say, it is important to bear in mind you are equally as liable as if you said it in print with your name attached.
I don't understand your hangup with names. We know how BA got into the fix it is, the disastrous decisions taken, the bizarre changes in direction (let's repaint the tails! Let's chase premium passengers only! Let's change to little aeroplanes! Let's rip out the seats and put luxury ones in! Let's go for EVERYBODY instead now!). One disastrous decision after another followed by a complete inability to put the locomotive back on the rails. I've already told you the staffing numbers/pilot for different airlines- BA doesn't need anywhere near what it has. Whilst pilots are exhausted and working up to their legal annual limit (and incidently getting punished for overrunning it), we have thousands of staff poring over laptops and desktops doing pretty much of nothing, Fengshuid offices, hundreds of meeting rooms in Waterside (lovely stream though!), and sometimes nobody to meet the aeroplanes or get bags to our passengers. Do you really need more explanation?
Well mad it must be because you most certainly can. The administrators of the bulletin board bear ALL responsibility for the repercussions of what is said there. They will obviously try and defray some of the responsibility to the person who said it (and whose email address is known and can be traced to the person responsible). So with all you say, it is important to bear in mind you are equally as liable as if you said it in print with your name attached.
I don't understand your hangup with names. We know how BA got into the fix it is, the disastrous decisions taken, the bizarre changes in direction (let's repaint the tails! Let's chase premium passengers only! Let's change to little aeroplanes! Let's rip out the seats and put luxury ones in! Let's go for EVERYBODY instead now!). One disastrous decision after another followed by a complete inability to put the locomotive back on the rails. I've already told you the staffing numbers/pilot for different airlines- BA doesn't need anywhere near what it has. Whilst pilots are exhausted and working up to their legal annual limit (and incidently getting punished for overrunning it), we have thousands of staff poring over laptops and desktops doing pretty much of nothing, Fengshuid offices, hundreds of meeting rooms in Waterside (lovely stream though!), and sometimes nobody to meet the aeroplanes or get bags to our passengers. Do you really need more explanation?
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: LHR
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"we have thousands of staff poring over laptops and desktops doing pretty much of nothing, Fengshuid offices, hundreds of meeting rooms in Waterside"
WHO and WHERE exactly are these thousands of people in fengshuid offices doing pretty much nothing? as I sit here in my non-fengshuied office (having a late lunch break) I see about 50 people all working making sure that we have planes to fly and places to send them. I look out the window and downstatirs I see a couple of hundred Sales and sales support people making sure that our planes have passengers. and let me see, nope the meeting room is empty and has been most of the day. Let's have a look, I have 1 meeting booked this whole week, for 30 mins.
No one round here does pretty much nothing 9, 10 up to 14 hours a day (average of about 2600 hours a year minus 26 days holiday) for an average of about 30-40 grand a year.
Next time your over here instead of walking through with your nose in the air, why not stop and ask some of the people what they do and how that helps our flights get off the ground everyday!?
No one chooses to work in this building, I prefered CCO or TBC myself, but we do WORK here.
Ah well, enough Lunch time back and forth, I better get my nose back into my laptop, and make sure you guys have planes to fly. No thanks is necessary, just as well as I know I wouldn't get any! 
C&B
WHO and WHERE exactly are these thousands of people in fengshuid offices doing pretty much nothing? as I sit here in my non-fengshuied office (having a late lunch break) I see about 50 people all working making sure that we have planes to fly and places to send them. I look out the window and downstatirs I see a couple of hundred Sales and sales support people making sure that our planes have passengers. and let me see, nope the meeting room is empty and has been most of the day. Let's have a look, I have 1 meeting booked this whole week, for 30 mins.
No one round here does pretty much nothing 9, 10 up to 14 hours a day (average of about 2600 hours a year minus 26 days holiday) for an average of about 30-40 grand a year.
Next time your over here instead of walking through with your nose in the air, why not stop and ask some of the people what they do and how that helps our flights get off the ground everyday!?
No one chooses to work in this building, I prefered CCO or TBC myself, but we do WORK here.
Ah well, enough Lunch time back and forth, I better get my nose back into my laptop, and make sure you guys have planes to fly. No thanks is necessary, just as well as I know I wouldn't get any!
C&B
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: on the golf course (Covid permitting)
Posts: 2,131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crash and Burn
"...They earn their wages through 12 hour days and bloody hard work, as do I. "
Maybe if you spend your working day browsing R&N on Pprune, you haven't enough proper work to do at Waterside?
TB
"...They earn their wages through 12 hour days and bloody hard work, as do I. "
Maybe if you spend your working day browsing R&N on Pprune, you haven't enough proper work to do at Waterside?
TB
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: SE UK
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Names?
Anyone in Revenue management who overbooks flights more than once a month.
All Performance Executives (flashy title for "Cabin Crew monitors")who felt it necessary prior to Sep 11th to watch how the new Bacon Baguette was recieved on a Barbados in November (or similar junket). We all know they're looking forward to the good old days.
All Project managers who seem capable of "change" on such a regular basis whilst never grasping the fact that this perpetual "change" is the very medium that retains their role.
Anyone who is on gardening leave from Waterside (YOU KNOW THERE'S HUNDREDS OUT THERE!). Working from home eh? My a#rse. You know full well, that the board won't sanction redundancy pay, so what do they do? Keep you at home on FULL pay? That'll sort the MPE figures. won't it?
That'll do for now, Crash and Burn.
Anyone in Revenue management who overbooks flights more than once a month.
All Performance Executives (flashy title for "Cabin Crew monitors")who felt it necessary prior to Sep 11th to watch how the new Bacon Baguette was recieved on a Barbados in November (or similar junket). We all know they're looking forward to the good old days.
All Project managers who seem capable of "change" on such a regular basis whilst never grasping the fact that this perpetual "change" is the very medium that retains their role.
Anyone who is on gardening leave from Waterside (YOU KNOW THERE'S HUNDREDS OUT THERE!). Working from home eh? My a#rse. You know full well, that the board won't sanction redundancy pay, so what do they do? Keep you at home on FULL pay? That'll sort the MPE figures. won't it?
That'll do for now, Crash and Burn.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Camp X-Ray
Posts: 2,135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
....9,10, up to 14 hours a day....
Aaaah, well that will explain why whenever I've arrived at Waterside at 9am I didn't see anyone, then when I've left at 5pm I didn't see anyone either. They obviously arrive earlier than me and leave later and are beavering away in their offices which is why I don't see them. But I am intrigued, just who are these imposters arriving by the shuttle bus load at 10am and leaving at 4pm? Must be the late shift arriving and the early shift leaving. You do work shifts at Waterside, don't you? Presumably that 30-40 grand a year includes the shift pay. Not bad wedge, better than a CEP (but then whats he doing to help get our flights of the ground every day). Last time I asked someone what they did they made me stack Lego bricks on top of each other in a big meeting room with a stylised vault door at the front!
PS If the meeting room is empty then you've probably missed your meeting, must have been in one of the other 182 meeting rooms. You'd best call the 'Manager Meeting Rooms' who was in BA news a few weeks ago and ask him where it was. Perhaps Dubai?
Aaaah, well that will explain why whenever I've arrived at Waterside at 9am I didn't see anyone, then when I've left at 5pm I didn't see anyone either. They obviously arrive earlier than me and leave later and are beavering away in their offices which is why I don't see them. But I am intrigued, just who are these imposters arriving by the shuttle bus load at 10am and leaving at 4pm? Must be the late shift arriving and the early shift leaving. You do work shifts at Waterside, don't you? Presumably that 30-40 grand a year includes the shift pay. Not bad wedge, better than a CEP (but then whats he doing to help get our flights of the ground every day). Last time I asked someone what they did they made me stack Lego bricks on top of each other in a big meeting room with a stylised vault door at the front!
PS If the meeting room is empty then you've probably missed your meeting, must have been in one of the other 182 meeting rooms. You'd best call the 'Manager Meeting Rooms' who was in BA news a few weeks ago and ask him where it was. Perhaps Dubai?
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: At the foot of the Lammermuirs
Posts: 344
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
C + B - I put the blame on our Chairman and board. Skippy should be allowed to run the airline without his hands being tied behind his back. Some blame must also be put on the Flt Ops/ pilot managers, who seem all too keen to put the boot in to their fellow pilots, in exchange for a bit more cash.
The "them" and "us" culture is very scary. It will also be detrimental to attempts to drag the company back on its feet.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: UK
Age: 54
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crash and Burn, all managers and waterside staff
May I make a couple of points and ask a question or two?
a) Its strange to see that you have so much time to browse Pprune at work - I see you managed to post at 10.55, 12.45, 13.03 and 13.52 that’s a 2hr 57min lunch break! I suppose though that that’s probably a little on the short side for Waterworld?
(Eeehh when I were a lad and working in t' City sandwich 'n' can o' pop at the desk was all we had - writing wit' one hand and eating wit' t' other.)
b) Also interesting to note that in your profile you list "Proffesional layabout" as your occupation, that’s nice seeing as you say you earn £30k - £40k. Please don't quip that this is a wind up since in your post you ask us to get to know you and find out what you do - this doesn't help.
c) I'm concerned with the quality of some of the people working in important roles within our company.
i) Could I ask whether in your opinion, people with excellent qualifications surround you? I remember meeting a course of new joiners to the ********* dept (self moderated) and asking which Universities they came from gave a list of Colleges of further education and Polytechnics. High flyers do not apply to BA - why is a whole different can of worms.
ii) Do they have proven track records in their fields? Or perhaps some have had no experience and just fancied a change of jobs after browsing Jobscan. I've heard about ex Cabin Crew with no relevant experience that managed to attain positions in Finance, Marketing etc.
iii) Accountability, is this a word used in your office. Sure, the sales people are partly responsible for filling planes with people, if times are good I'm sure they take a pat on the back, in bad times its all down to a "soft" market. World economies have enjoyed the longest run of growth and prosperity in history, only recently has it wavered, yet for years BA has described the market as soft. In the meantime low-cost operators have emerged and other majors are stealing a march on us e.g. Lufthansa who flew more people than we did last year.
d) I assume that you are a manager; you say that you have a MG, SM and GM above you. This is one of the problems with BA - too many layers of management that leads to slow decision-making and poor accountability. Flatter structures and companies that have grasped the nettle and adopted them are far more successful than those that haven't. Even Rod said we have to get rid of layers and complexity, but as has been stated his hands are tied.
e) What about the chap responsible for ordering the retro fitting of the B777 bunks? Boeing quoted a figure of $ x and a weight of Y kg; Joe Bloggs Engineering Salesman quoted less $ and kg. Our chap, without securing a guarantee of product, orders Joe Bloggs to do the work. Guess what? It ends up costing more and being heavier than the Boeing quote, net result was higher initial cost and ongoing higher fuel costs. A manager in the fuel dept related this story to me. It shows how some people are clearly not up to the job in BA and should be got rid of. As a pilot I am put through the simulator twice a year, route checked once a year, given a thorough medical once/twice per year and have SESMA (black box spy) looking over my shoulder every time I fly. If I don't perform in any of these areas then I lose my job - simple.
f) Did you hear the one about the monthly safety team meeting in Waterside being turfed out of their meeting room because it had been allocated to a Feng Shui meeting? Quite funny that cos it highlights the lack prioritisation and also the absence of inter departmental communication and understanding.
g) Is it true that people were employed in Waterside to fill the copiers with paper and toner? When I worked in an office that was for the secretaries and also whoever used it.
h) Last year at the dentist in Waterside, I got talking to a new Graduate entrant who'd started working for us and told me of her frustration at not being given any work to do except running to the tea machine and menial photocopying and filing. Hopefully that changed some time soon after her initial 3 weeks.
j) The length of the working day 9 - 12 hours. Disputed by some people. Obviously, some of you guys do long hours and get results, thank you. But equally you must admit that there are some that don't - turn up at 10 leave at 4 etc. To quote one of my colleagues, "I honestly say that pilots don't leave work only - it’s a bloody long way to fall." Just for the record, this month of august I will have 232.5 hrs away from base (and home), not bad you think as this works out to be about 50 hrs/week. BUT I had a weeks leave so the figure is more like a 65 hr week. This is not a particularly heavy month for me and I am certainly not the hardest worked pilot in BA.
I think I can speak on the majority of pilots when I say I don't have a problem with paying and rewarding effective and successful managers. Its far better to have 1 chap earning £100k doing the job, getting results, putting in the graft than 5 layabouts earning £20k.
To summarise...Once again, to any managers that are out there who do get results, are effective in managing and putting the hours in - thank you. To the dossers - do the decent thing and resign.
Cheers
May I make a couple of points and ask a question or two?
a) Its strange to see that you have so much time to browse Pprune at work - I see you managed to post at 10.55, 12.45, 13.03 and 13.52 that’s a 2hr 57min lunch break! I suppose though that that’s probably a little on the short side for Waterworld?
(Eeehh when I were a lad and working in t' City sandwich 'n' can o' pop at the desk was all we had - writing wit' one hand and eating wit' t' other.)
b) Also interesting to note that in your profile you list "Proffesional layabout" as your occupation, that’s nice seeing as you say you earn £30k - £40k. Please don't quip that this is a wind up since in your post you ask us to get to know you and find out what you do - this doesn't help.
c) I'm concerned with the quality of some of the people working in important roles within our company.
i) Could I ask whether in your opinion, people with excellent qualifications surround you? I remember meeting a course of new joiners to the ********* dept (self moderated) and asking which Universities they came from gave a list of Colleges of further education and Polytechnics. High flyers do not apply to BA - why is a whole different can of worms.
ii) Do they have proven track records in their fields? Or perhaps some have had no experience and just fancied a change of jobs after browsing Jobscan. I've heard about ex Cabin Crew with no relevant experience that managed to attain positions in Finance, Marketing etc.
iii) Accountability, is this a word used in your office. Sure, the sales people are partly responsible for filling planes with people, if times are good I'm sure they take a pat on the back, in bad times its all down to a "soft" market. World economies have enjoyed the longest run of growth and prosperity in history, only recently has it wavered, yet for years BA has described the market as soft. In the meantime low-cost operators have emerged and other majors are stealing a march on us e.g. Lufthansa who flew more people than we did last year.
d) I assume that you are a manager; you say that you have a MG, SM and GM above you. This is one of the problems with BA - too many layers of management that leads to slow decision-making and poor accountability. Flatter structures and companies that have grasped the nettle and adopted them are far more successful than those that haven't. Even Rod said we have to get rid of layers and complexity, but as has been stated his hands are tied.
e) What about the chap responsible for ordering the retro fitting of the B777 bunks? Boeing quoted a figure of $ x and a weight of Y kg; Joe Bloggs Engineering Salesman quoted less $ and kg. Our chap, without securing a guarantee of product, orders Joe Bloggs to do the work. Guess what? It ends up costing more and being heavier than the Boeing quote, net result was higher initial cost and ongoing higher fuel costs. A manager in the fuel dept related this story to me. It shows how some people are clearly not up to the job in BA and should be got rid of. As a pilot I am put through the simulator twice a year, route checked once a year, given a thorough medical once/twice per year and have SESMA (black box spy) looking over my shoulder every time I fly. If I don't perform in any of these areas then I lose my job - simple.
f) Did you hear the one about the monthly safety team meeting in Waterside being turfed out of their meeting room because it had been allocated to a Feng Shui meeting? Quite funny that cos it highlights the lack prioritisation and also the absence of inter departmental communication and understanding.
g) Is it true that people were employed in Waterside to fill the copiers with paper and toner? When I worked in an office that was for the secretaries and also whoever used it.
h) Last year at the dentist in Waterside, I got talking to a new Graduate entrant who'd started working for us and told me of her frustration at not being given any work to do except running to the tea machine and menial photocopying and filing. Hopefully that changed some time soon after her initial 3 weeks.
j) The length of the working day 9 - 12 hours. Disputed by some people. Obviously, some of you guys do long hours and get results, thank you. But equally you must admit that there are some that don't - turn up at 10 leave at 4 etc. To quote one of my colleagues, "I honestly say that pilots don't leave work only - it’s a bloody long way to fall." Just for the record, this month of august I will have 232.5 hrs away from base (and home), not bad you think as this works out to be about 50 hrs/week. BUT I had a weeks leave so the figure is more like a 65 hr week. This is not a particularly heavy month for me and I am certainly not the hardest worked pilot in BA.
I think I can speak on the majority of pilots when I say I don't have a problem with paying and rewarding effective and successful managers. Its far better to have 1 chap earning £100k doing the job, getting results, putting in the graft than 5 layabouts earning £20k.
To summarise...Once again, to any managers that are out there who do get results, are effective in managing and putting the hours in - thank you. To the dossers - do the decent thing and resign.
Cheers
Last edited by Bucking Bronco; 30th Aug 2002 at 09:37.