BA's pay offer!
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Bucking Bronco - I certainly take your point, but see below
Notso - I appreciate your efforts on the parts of us junior guys and sorry for the comment - just got a little annoyed.
I agree with all the figures and the percentage of total cost that pilots make up etc. I also agree that people who have worked extremely hard to sit up the pointy end and have a lot of reponsibility should be paid more than someone who has had 4 weeks of cabin training. BUT I cannot see how a strike will actually help. I realise that we do not have many levers, but striking will
a) lose the company money - more of a reason not to pay us.
b) give a good excuse to management to blame losses on
c) make the accountants see us in a bad light and try to screw other things
d) might make the company go bust - then no jobs at all (until another airline buys us, puts their pilots above us in seniority and pays us less saying we should be glad we have jobs)
All I am complaining about is what seems rather dangerous. The public will not be on our side if we strike and we cannot afford to lose the people who ultimately pay our wages.
I support a lot of whay you say, I am just concerned about what a strike will do.
Notso - I appreciate your efforts on the parts of us junior guys and sorry for the comment - just got a little annoyed.
I agree with all the figures and the percentage of total cost that pilots make up etc. I also agree that people who have worked extremely hard to sit up the pointy end and have a lot of reponsibility should be paid more than someone who has had 4 weeks of cabin training. BUT I cannot see how a strike will actually help. I realise that we do not have many levers, but striking will
a) lose the company money - more of a reason not to pay us.
b) give a good excuse to management to blame losses on
c) make the accountants see us in a bad light and try to screw other things
d) might make the company go bust - then no jobs at all (until another airline buys us, puts their pilots above us in seniority and pays us less saying we should be glad we have jobs)
All I am complaining about is what seems rather dangerous. The public will not be on our side if we strike and we cannot afford to lose the people who ultimately pay our wages.
I support a lot of whay you say, I am just concerned about what a strike will do.
Why are some people so worried about the publics perception? Surely only Nurses get public approval for pay rises.
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Good point my friend. It is our business, and ours alone. The good old public can think and say what they like. We do not need them, on side or off side, and I personally do not give a 'monkeys'.
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Exeng
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Ornithopter,
I would ask you to trust your colleagues and go along with the majority decision. I think we have reached the stage where only industrial action will achieve anything. Giving the company complete co-operation and peace from us over 35 years has seen us decline like no other pilot group in no other company! Even John F. has calculated in the last few years our real pay has slipped 40% (from an already low base!). There is only one way to go about this- show resolve and the other side will cave in. Let others try it and see if it works for them if they want to follow (I don't think it will!).
Maggie Thatcher (bless her cotton socks) said during the Falklands something about her Cabinet had gone a 'bit wobbly' about the magnitude of the events (someone will correct me!). It's easy to feel 'wobbly'. Looking at this business, it has become apparent we are not going to get anywhere without a major recourse to industrial strife. They are going to test our resolve all they can. The only advice I can give is to VERY FIRMLY back up your reps and stand together.
I would ask you to trust your colleagues and go along with the majority decision. I think we have reached the stage where only industrial action will achieve anything. Giving the company complete co-operation and peace from us over 35 years has seen us decline like no other pilot group in no other company! Even John F. has calculated in the last few years our real pay has slipped 40% (from an already low base!). There is only one way to go about this- show resolve and the other side will cave in. Let others try it and see if it works for them if they want to follow (I don't think it will!).
Maggie Thatcher (bless her cotton socks) said during the Falklands something about her Cabinet had gone a 'bit wobbly' about the magnitude of the events (someone will correct me!). It's easy to feel 'wobbly'. Looking at this business, it has become apparent we are not going to get anywhere without a major recourse to industrial strife. They are going to test our resolve all they can. The only advice I can give is to VERY FIRMLY back up your reps and stand together.
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I am not about to cause problems for my colleagues and will have to trust the majority descision if anything happens, as for one thing I do not have enough experience in the industry. There is still a lot to learn and you guys with more experience than me are the ones to listen to.
I just don't like words like 'lousy job' and 'pittance' and things like that as it appears that people who write that have lost the plot, as I neither have a lousy job or get paid a pittance and that is where my comparisons with other jobs came in.
I hope you realise how some of the posts above worried me a bit, in my position as a junior guy, as when things go wrong I am the first to go. Perhaps a bit wobbly - but understandable from my point of view? Will obviously wait to see what happens, but hope that industrial action is a last resort and one that we do not need to use. I would much rather be at work than sitting at home twiddling my thumbs, and as long as I feel that way, then I am happy with my job - certainly don't want to lose it.
I just don't like words like 'lousy job' and 'pittance' and things like that as it appears that people who write that have lost the plot, as I neither have a lousy job or get paid a pittance and that is where my comparisons with other jobs came in.
I hope you realise how some of the posts above worried me a bit, in my position as a junior guy, as when things go wrong I am the first to go. Perhaps a bit wobbly - but understandable from my point of view? Will obviously wait to see what happens, but hope that industrial action is a last resort and one that we do not need to use. I would much rather be at work than sitting at home twiddling my thumbs, and as long as I feel that way, then I am happy with my job - certainly don't want to lose it.
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Ornithoptor
What do you suggest instead, that we go in individually to see Lloyd and ask him for 25%? Let me know how you get on. Its through abuse of Guiding Principles, scaremongering and pleading poverty and touting prudence that BAs managment has managed to erode our terms and conditions.
As for "lousy job" well I don't suppose it is compared to some BUT its certainly changed in the 5 1/2 years I've been flying and the trend is the wrong way.
"Pittance" yep, compared to what some of my friends earn it is. As I have said on a previous thread out of my Uni house of 6 people I am the 5th best paid - or is it the second worst? The worst is an aspiring actress who temps as a PA. With 11 GCSEs, 4 A levels, an Honours degree from a "redbrick", experience working in the City and ultimately what counts - a JAA ATPL. I am underpaid compared to my University and School peer group AND underpaid compared to other pilots flying for majors.
What do you suggest instead, that we go in individually to see Lloyd and ask him for 25%? Let me know how you get on. Its through abuse of Guiding Principles, scaremongering and pleading poverty and touting prudence that BAs managment has managed to erode our terms and conditions.
As for "lousy job" well I don't suppose it is compared to some BUT its certainly changed in the 5 1/2 years I've been flying and the trend is the wrong way.
"Pittance" yep, compared to what some of my friends earn it is. As I have said on a previous thread out of my Uni house of 6 people I am the 5th best paid - or is it the second worst? The worst is an aspiring actress who temps as a PA. With 11 GCSEs, 4 A levels, an Honours degree from a "redbrick", experience working in the City and ultimately what counts - a JAA ATPL. I am underpaid compared to my University and School peer group AND underpaid compared to other pilots flying for majors.
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Lousy Job
Everybodies job within BA, and I suggest elsewhere has been eroded in the last 5 1/2 year, not just pilots, and the trend will continue because that is the nature of the beast, It will continue until the rush for the door affects the business. We are a long way from that, are we not. So not such a lousy job after all is it !.
I have seen the outside world and at the moment am happy where I am , and sad as it my seem , still proud to work for BA
I have seen the outside world and at the moment am happy where I am , and sad as it my seem , still proud to work for BA
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I'm just glad that there are lots of gullible people waiting to join BIG AIRWAYS. I personally think its the best job in the whole wide world and am looking forward to paying lots of money to go to work, cos that's how much I luv it.........yeah right!
Sorry guys and gals, don't think there will be a strike, too many fuzzy heads to contend with. I think BA management would miss an opportunity if they did not introduce further cuts to the BA piloting community. 1% payrise, how about a 25% paycut across the board. Not only will it save the company but all the fuzzyheads will not mind as they work for BA cos they luv it so much!!
Harry works for money, not BA.
Sorry guys and gals, don't think there will be a strike, too many fuzzy heads to contend with. I think BA management would miss an opportunity if they did not introduce further cuts to the BA piloting community. 1% payrise, how about a 25% paycut across the board. Not only will it save the company but all the fuzzyheads will not mind as they work for BA cos they luv it so much!!
Harry works for money, not BA.
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Good luck to all you BA boys threatening strike action. I hope as I'm sure you do that it doesn't come to it but enough is enough. Bucking Bronco is absolutely correct. We are paid a bloody pittance now compared with other professional jobs and surely a stand has to be made.
You only have to see the salaries train drivers get now to realise how we are being left behind. And if that is a harder job than flying an aeroplane, then I need to be removed from this world by the men in white coats. For a start, it wouldnt take me 18 months to get there nor would it cost me £50k. I bet the majority of pilots could drive a train if taught but most train drivers wouldn't be able to pass their ATPL exams let alone fly an aeroplane.
It irritates me listening to those who think this is a well paid profession. It most certainly is not anymore and if BA pilots manage to achieve a good deal, then it filters out to the whole UK market. My employer has given us sweet FA this year, I am being taxed more and being worked harder. So those who say just get on with and count yourself lucky - think again. Mr Darke's exit is testament to the fact that a lot of pilots feel that they have been pushed too far now.
Good Luck Boys - we're all counting on you to kick some arse.
You only have to see the salaries train drivers get now to realise how we are being left behind. And if that is a harder job than flying an aeroplane, then I need to be removed from this world by the men in white coats. For a start, it wouldnt take me 18 months to get there nor would it cost me £50k. I bet the majority of pilots could drive a train if taught but most train drivers wouldn't be able to pass their ATPL exams let alone fly an aeroplane.
It irritates me listening to those who think this is a well paid profession. It most certainly is not anymore and if BA pilots manage to achieve a good deal, then it filters out to the whole UK market. My employer has given us sweet FA this year, I am being taxed more and being worked harder. So those who say just get on with and count yourself lucky - think again. Mr Darke's exit is testament to the fact that a lot of pilots feel that they have been pushed too far now.
Good Luck Boys - we're all counting on you to kick some arse.
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I am surprised that nobody sees that the problem is that you have voluntarily left the free market, in that you embrace the seniority system, referred to elsewhere on this thread as "concrete wellies". Without this, pilots could come and go to jobs for which they are qualified, just like any other profession in the world of work, and the company would be forced to pay the going rate if they wanted to keep people. In fact you'd hardly need a union, though I don't suppose it would encourage thinking like this, because they want you to need them. Those concerned about earning less that their university friends might ask how many of them work in a unionised, seniority-based system.
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http://politics.guardian.co.uk/gla/s...660019,00.html
Um, Seriph, please take a look at this article and scroll down to about half way down and you will see that basic pay for an underground train driver is £30,401 for a 35 hour week. Pay is up 9.7% over the last 12 months. Now compare that with Bucking Bronco's post on page three of this thread: he said he got £20,000 wen he started at BA. Therefore I can conclude that traindrivers do indeed get paid more than some pilots.
Of course some pilots earn far more than this; but I'm just illustrating the point that a professional that has probably worked far harder and longer to save, train (no pun intended
) etc is getting paid far less than a traindriver that probably hasn't gone through all of the costs etc.
Um, Seriph, please take a look at this article and scroll down to about half way down and you will see that basic pay for an underground train driver is £30,401 for a 35 hour week. Pay is up 9.7% over the last 12 months. Now compare that with Bucking Bronco's post on page three of this thread: he said he got £20,000 wen he started at BA. Therefore I can conclude that traindrivers do indeed get paid more than some pilots.
Of course some pilots earn far more than this; but I'm just illustrating the point that a professional that has probably worked far harder and longer to save, train (no pun intended
) etc is getting paid far less than a traindriver that probably hasn't gone through all of the costs etc.
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Bronco - To be honest I am not sure what to do, as I have said I am inexperienced in this industry. I do agree that our terms and conditions have been eroded, but as GIZA has said it is happening everywhere. I have a good degree, A levels, GCSE's etc and was offered a job for £16K a year. Before you ask, yes it was a decent job with good training and no the pay did not go up much over the years. In fact it stopped at about £25K after 5 years!!! Things like that make me think that even though things have been eroded, life as a pilot is not the pile of compost that people portray it as.
Giza - you're right, everywhere in the public sector things are a lot worse than they are here, hence my opinion that things are not THAT bad.
Studi - fair point, perhaps I am being too windy?
I considered becoming an underground train driver while waiting for a job flying. They get paid a few thousand more than me. However, I think they are really overpaid for what they do and only get that money because they can. Striking ruins London every year and the management give in while the whole network crumbles. Certainly not something I want to see in Aviation.
I agree with Sigmund's thoughts on seniority. At the risk of starting a flame war with everyone else, it certainly seems like madness to me that we (effectively) can't swap companies. Large banks and the like swap employees all the time and in some cases the training costs for them far outweigh what the airlines have to bear for us. I am loyal to my company, but who knows where I will be in 10 years time? Certainly seems like concrete boots to me.
Giza - you're right, everywhere in the public sector things are a lot worse than they are here, hence my opinion that things are not THAT bad.
Studi - fair point, perhaps I am being too windy?
I considered becoming an underground train driver while waiting for a job flying. They get paid a few thousand more than me. However, I think they are really overpaid for what they do and only get that money because they can. Striking ruins London every year and the management give in while the whole network crumbles. Certainly not something I want to see in Aviation.
I agree with Sigmund's thoughts on seniority. At the risk of starting a flame war with everyone else, it certainly seems like madness to me that we (effectively) can't swap companies. Large banks and the like swap employees all the time and in some cases the training costs for them far outweigh what the airlines have to bear for us. I am loyal to my company, but who knows where I will be in 10 years time? Certainly seems like concrete boots to me.
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Ornithopter
If you are who you say you are (and I have no reason to doubt that you are not) then I would like to offer you some advice.
Lurk, not post. If I may modestly say so, my own "postings to date of registration" ratio might offer some guidance.
Of course, you are perfectly entitled to say whatever you like and I understand your concerns about your employment prospects.
However, once in a while, industrial unrest over pilot pay comes to our profession and it is always the case that there are new joiners on the scene when this occurs.
The whole situation is unfortunate for everyone, and I include pilots, shareholders and management within that term.
It is unfortunate for we pilots, as the bills still arrive on the doorstep.
It is unfortunate for shareholders, as they are being let down by management - it is shareholder investment which supports the company and gives said management the freedom to make the decisions it chooses.
It is ultimately unfortunate for the management, for it is they who will bear the brunt of their own incompetence.
Pilots are in demand. Shareholders can sit it out, or pick another stock. Management will be fired.
If you are who you say you are (and I have no reason to doubt that you are not) then I would like to offer you some advice.
Lurk, not post. If I may modestly say so, my own "postings to date of registration" ratio might offer some guidance.
Of course, you are perfectly entitled to say whatever you like and I understand your concerns about your employment prospects.
However, once in a while, industrial unrest over pilot pay comes to our profession and it is always the case that there are new joiners on the scene when this occurs.
The whole situation is unfortunate for everyone, and I include pilots, shareholders and management within that term.
It is unfortunate for we pilots, as the bills still arrive on the doorstep.
It is unfortunate for shareholders, as they are being let down by management - it is shareholder investment which supports the company and gives said management the freedom to make the decisions it chooses.
It is ultimately unfortunate for the management, for it is they who will bear the brunt of their own incompetence.
Pilots are in demand. Shareholders can sit it out, or pick another stock. Management will be fired.
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Overstress - points taken.
I have been reading Prune for about 6 years now and my number of posts has been very small. I do not usually have anything to add, but felt that this thread was something I could add to which would cause a bit of discussion. I fully plan to continue lurking. My opinions have been said now and other posts answered so I don't really see what I can add anymore. The responses to my posts have certainly made me think though -which is why I posted in the first place.
I have been reading Prune for about 6 years now and my number of posts has been very small. I do not usually have anything to add, but felt that this thread was something I could add to which would cause a bit of discussion. I fully plan to continue lurking. My opinions have been said now and other posts answered so I don't really see what I can add anymore. The responses to my posts have certainly made me think though -which is why I posted in the first place.
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I think BA must change it's allowances system.
Allowances do not accurately reflect peoples expenses downroute, and I would prefer a larger and guaranteed basic, and more simpler allowances.
It is because of allowances that people bid for certain things, and it is because of bidding that we want seniority. Thus our lust for lucrative trips means we put on our own "concrete boots" and keep ourselves here.
Increase basic salary, introduce formula pay. Make allowances on a duty hour basis; the longer you work, the more meals you need thus the more money you get, like at LGW but worth more. Have an additional nightly allowance which is the ONLY variable factor between destinations to account for the economic differences.
This will mean that senior people have less need to bid for the big money trips, and will mean that junior guys don't spend all their time in africa and other low paid stops.
People will be less concerned about bids and seniority and will bid just for things that interest them. Operationally this lets all pilots have a fairer share of destinations and gain more experience sooner. Ultimately with a much higher basic, and less emphasis on allowances and seniority, other airlines in the UK then have a higher basic salary to use as a benchmark.
When BA pilots can leave the company and go onto a similar basic elsewhere without fretting over lost allowances, they will do so when something aggravates them. Likewise other pilots will come to BA satisfied that they can still have a decent lifestyle, less scuppered by the seniority system. For example they can stay short haul without losing too much, or go long haul and see more of the world than NewYork and Nairobi.
When more people are moving between airlines, they begin to wince from huge training costs, they need to improve pensions and pay to keep people in their company, just like happens in other professional jobs; in the real world.
We are highly skilled professionals, and most of us are fairly intelligent. We are however our own worst enemy when we trap ourselves inside a company which is full of jealous managers who simply want to shaft us.
Allowances do not accurately reflect peoples expenses downroute, and I would prefer a larger and guaranteed basic, and more simpler allowances.
It is because of allowances that people bid for certain things, and it is because of bidding that we want seniority. Thus our lust for lucrative trips means we put on our own "concrete boots" and keep ourselves here.
Increase basic salary, introduce formula pay. Make allowances on a duty hour basis; the longer you work, the more meals you need thus the more money you get, like at LGW but worth more. Have an additional nightly allowance which is the ONLY variable factor between destinations to account for the economic differences.
This will mean that senior people have less need to bid for the big money trips, and will mean that junior guys don't spend all their time in africa and other low paid stops.
People will be less concerned about bids and seniority and will bid just for things that interest them. Operationally this lets all pilots have a fairer share of destinations and gain more experience sooner. Ultimately with a much higher basic, and less emphasis on allowances and seniority, other airlines in the UK then have a higher basic salary to use as a benchmark.
When BA pilots can leave the company and go onto a similar basic elsewhere without fretting over lost allowances, they will do so when something aggravates them. Likewise other pilots will come to BA satisfied that they can still have a decent lifestyle, less scuppered by the seniority system. For example they can stay short haul without losing too much, or go long haul and see more of the world than NewYork and Nairobi.
When more people are moving between airlines, they begin to wince from huge training costs, they need to improve pensions and pay to keep people in their company, just like happens in other professional jobs; in the real world.
We are highly skilled professionals, and most of us are fairly intelligent. We are however our own worst enemy when we trap ourselves inside a company which is full of jealous managers who simply want to shaft us.
JONSV - I hesitate to comment on this thread as I don't know much about the issues. Nevertheless - you seem to make an excellent point.
Can someone counter argue this idea?
Cheers
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Can someone counter argue this idea?
Cheers
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So, in the middle of an industrial dispute, you wanna change the way the aviation world is run? Heaven help us! Let's jsut get through this dispute without egg on our faces before we try and change the laws of nature! (and aviation employment). Go dream somewhere else!
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Quite, lets go for the % increase. Lets stay united and not get distracted.
The problem with your idea is that the junior guys will end up in the expensive places eg NRT and HKG, having to stay in their room because they can't afford the £7 beer. Meanwhile the senior guys will develop a sudden fondness of jet lag free, warm, cheap africa with its golf courses. So the big boys with the cash end up living like kings with juniors living like paupers. If you alter the DOA for different destinations then this will just mirror the present system.
Cheers
The problem with your idea is that the junior guys will end up in the expensive places eg NRT and HKG, having to stay in their room because they can't afford the £7 beer. Meanwhile the senior guys will develop a sudden fondness of jet lag free, warm, cheap africa with its golf courses. So the big boys with the cash end up living like kings with juniors living like paupers. If you alter the DOA for different destinations then this will just mirror the present system.
Cheers