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Boeing 737 Max Recertification Testing - Finally.

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Boeing 737 Max Recertification Testing - Finally.

Old 19th Oct 2022, 15:34
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Originally Posted by MechEngr View Post
I don't see an alerting system being proposed that reported false reports of other reporting systems.
Isn't that part of a synthetic AOA which would probably reduce the effects of a bad AOA signal?
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Old 19th Oct 2022, 21:38
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The lack of EICAS/ECAM technology isn’t as important as the fixing poor critical systems sensors and failure modes. However, since the Boeing QRH has been dumbed down while retaining its frankly bizarre formatting the timely management of non-normals is not assured for all crews.

The first things that need to be fixed are systems design, then sensors followed by unambiguous displays.

I don’t think they can certify a 737 under the new rules period, and not just because of EICAS integration.
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Old 20th Oct 2022, 12:47
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Originally Posted by Australopithecus View Post
The lack of EICAS/ECAM technology isn’t as important as the fixing poor critical systems sensors and failure modes. However, since the Boeing QRH has been dumbed down while retaining its frankly bizarre formatting the timely management of non-normals is not assured for all crews.

The first things that need to be fixed are systems design, then sensors followed by unambiguous displays.

I don’t think they can certify a 737 under the new rules period, and not just because of EICAS integration.
Agree entirely with the comments regarding the Boeing QRH. Progressively “dumbed down” to the level of the lowest common denominator, the 737. A truly awful document to work with due to the weird formatting and at my lot errors are regularly found.
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Old 20th Oct 2022, 18:10
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Whatever the views, it's now only nine weeks to the introduction of the new requirement, less holiday shutdown time, and we haven't seen any sign (I am aware) that the US government is even starting to move to give the exemption. I presume it has to be given before the cutoff date - all the initial discussion was based on this.
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Old 22nd Oct 2022, 09:26
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More woes for Boeing https://euroweeklynews.com/2022/10/2...crime-victims/
This will effectively seal the fate of the 7 and 10 ?
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Old 22nd Oct 2022, 09:41
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Probably not, but I would be grateful if Willow Run could opine.
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Old 22nd Oct 2022, 09:54
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It's hard to see how this latest development isn't going to influence the decision on whether Boeing gets off the hook, certification-wise.
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Old 22nd Oct 2022, 12:34
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
It's hard to see how this latest development isn't going to influence the decision on whether Boeing gets off the hook, certification-wise.
May be more interesting than that.... TBC management will be finally facing some music for the last 25 years of ambivalence. What TBC and the DOJ previously concocted was outrageous in the circumstance, and done on Trumps watch by his AG.
It doesn't preclude the 7 and 10, but it sure doesn't give TBC any leeway on further shoddy managerial decisions. It ain't over till the appeals are over, and the DOJ has to look at it's role in this. The fine funds should have all gone to the families, the govt also had unclean hands in the matter and should have not benefited from the disaster at the cost of the rights of the families.

The B737 is not a bad plane, it is just average. The failure to provide information was unconscionable and the basis of the stabilizer manual mode to meet the Part is flawed still. To rework the design to make it compliant with the intent of the rule would be a monumental undertaking, and proper training and awareness is a better solution.

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Old 22nd Oct 2022, 14:23
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Originally Posted by Australopithecus View Post
Probably not, but I would be grateful if Willow Run could opine.
Thank you for the invitation.

I'll latch onto the court's written order and offer more if I can, although for now, I think fdr hit the point squarely on center: the plea agreement [correction: Deferred Prosecution Agreement] was a sorry excuse for an outcome and resolution of that criminal matter in federal court. Let it be recalled that a more vigorous criminal prosecution did in fact take place, namely the effort to convict Mark Forkner, an effort that - thankfully - failed.

As to the looming certification deadline..... Earlier this fall I had occasion to fly to Brussels to attend a gabfest featuring some worthies in European aviation. I asked a senior flight attendant if I could get permission to visit the flight deck of the 787-10 after landing and gate-parking and ask the pilots some questions I'd been reading about regarding flight control systems and, to my surprise, the aviators did invite me up. I'm here to report nothing about how the 787-10 crew alerting systems work or compare to less contemporary systems . . . because all that happened is I got my Enthusiast membership renewed again - so excited to see through the windscreen and (at Capt's suggestion) sit in the left-hand seat (oh boy!), put hands on the control yoke (....!) I utterly blanked on any questions. I'll save the forum from seeing the photos of this SLF-atty looking so Enthusiastic. But my point is, I'm more convinced than ever that Congress is not quite capable of dissecting the real questions about extending the deadline. I have to put some faith and hope on FAA and, yes, this latest news about the legal aftermath of the two crashes would seem to weigh against FAA giving TBC such a benefit of doubt (.... subject to reading the district court judge's ruling).

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Old 22nd Oct 2022, 16:34
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Originally Posted by WillowRun 6-3 View Post
Thank you for the invitation.

I'll latch onto the court's written order and offer more if I can, although for now, I think fdr hit the point squarely on center: the plea agreement [correction: Deferred Prosecution Agreement] was a sorry excuse for an outcome and resolution of that criminal matter in federal court. Let it be recalled that a more vigorous criminal prosecution did in fact take place, namely the effort to convict Mark Forkner, an effort that - thankfully - failed.

As to the looming certification deadline..... Earlier this fall I had occasion to fly to Brussels to attend a gabfest featuring some worthies in European aviation. I asked a senior flight attendant if I could get permission to visit the flight deck of the 787-10 after landing and gate-parking and ask the pilots some questions I'd been reading about regarding flight control systems and, to my surprise, the aviators did invite me up. I'm here to report nothing about how the 787-10 crew alerting systems work or compare to less contemporary systems . . . because all that happened is I got my Enthusiast membership renewed again - so excited to see through the windscreen and (at Capt's suggestion) sit in the left-hand seat (oh boy!), put hands on the control yoke (....!) I utterly blanked on any questions. I'll save the forum from seeing the photos of this SLF-atty looking so Enthusiastic. But my point is, I'm more convinced than ever that Congress is not quite capable of dissecting the real questions about extending the deadline. I have to put some faith and hope on FAA and, yes, this latest news about the legal aftermath of the two crashes would seem to weigh against FAA giving TBC such a benefit of doubt (.... subject to reading the district court judge's ruling).
I'm with you there - there should never be any plea agreements allowed in federal cases.

Would there be any reason not to?

What verdict is the correct one and what punishment is deserved?
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Old 23rd Oct 2022, 02:36
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Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
Whatever the views, it's now only nine weeks to the introduction of the new requirement, less holiday shutdown time, and we haven't seen any sign (I am aware) that the US government is even starting to move to give the exemption. I presume it has to be given before the cutoff date - all the initial discussion was based on this.
I think a lot is going to depend on the makeup of the next Congress. Since it is likely to be a Republican majority and many Republican Representative seem to have unusually flexible ethical boundaries I fully expect Boing will get an 11 hour reprieve. How the other world regulatory authorities react will be interesting to see...
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Old 23rd Oct 2022, 05:23
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U.S. judge rules Boeing 737 MAX crash passengers are ‘crime victims’

That has to be an industry first does it not? What a disaster for a once proud company who had personages in their alumni who were truly industry giants, Allen, Sutter, one weeps.
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Old 23rd Oct 2022, 12:23
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Originally Posted by fdr View Post
May be more interesting than that.... TBC management will be finally facing some music for the last 25 years of ambivalence. What TBC and the DOJ previously concocted was outrageous in the circumstance, and done on Trumps watch by his AG.
It doesn't preclude the 7 and 10, but it sure doesn't give TBC any leeway on further shoddy managerial decisions. It ain't over till the appeals are over, and the DOJ has to look at it's role in this. The fine funds should have all gone to the families, the govt also had unclean hands in the matter and should have not benefited from the disaster at the cost of the rights of the families.

The B737 is not a bad plane, it is just average. The failure to provide information was unconscionable and the basis of the stabilizer manual mode to meet the Part is flawed still. To rework the design to make it compliant with the intent of the rule would be a monumental undertaking, and proper training and awareness is a better solution.
Let's add TDS to your TLAs.
The 737 (all variants) are not bad aircraft. The conspiracy to cover up the differences between old and MAX was criminal. The design of MAX MCAS with only two inputs to a safety critical system, instead of "best-of-three" was yet another appalling cost-saving decision that cost lives.
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Old 23rd Oct 2022, 15:01
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Originally Posted by Blackfriar View Post
Let's add TDS to your TLAs.
The 737 (all variants) are not bad aircraft. The conspiracy to cover up the differences between old and MAX was criminal. The design of MAX MCAS with only two inputs to a safety critical system, instead of "best-of-three" was yet another appalling cost-saving decision that cost lives.
Three Letter Acronyms seem to come naturally to The Boeing Company. If that led to more insightful FCOMS that would be worth the extra letter or two.

The failure to disclose the novel system came about from one messed up process, which the FAA had many heads up over a very long time. In the end, a single fall guy gets dragged into court for sending poor prose that came back to bite him. The one guy that sat in front of a judge was not the cause, he was a result of the companies systemic issues and happened to be the guy who actually found an issue by accident, and then messed up. He didn't design it, and, reading his emails, I'm not 100% certain that what he saw was actually what the plane eventually encountered. The process that the engineers followed was flawed, but they did not develop the system that pressed them to come up with such solutions, and then they failed to evaluate the system architecture they had arrived at for failure modes. That, the engineers failed in, and that is what occurs in design fro time to time. They didn't act criminally, they did act with less than stellar competence. The system is owned by the Companies senior managers, they oversaw the behaviour towards production QA being marginalised, as did the FAA, and they oversaw the ethics of the company, which is a sorry tale of it's own.

The Dept of Justice moved with unseemly haste to marginalise the victims and to give cover to the Company, and that is unconscionable A penalty that values the lives lost at around 25% of what the govt wanted for the embarrassment of the Companies failings on the watch of the govt is poor taste.

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Old 23rd Oct 2022, 15:24
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Originally Posted by Big Pistons Forever View Post
I think a lot is going to depend on the makeup of the next Congress. Since it is likely to be a Republican majority and many Republican Representative seem to have unusually flexible ethical boundaries I fully expect Boing will get an 11 hour reprieve. How the other world regulatory authorities react will be interesting to see...
That will be interesting to watch from afar. As it is your country, it is inappropriate for those around the world to pass comment, but.... golly!

The B737 at this juncture has proven itself in spite of a few gotchas to be a reasonable workhorse. I would prefer to see improved high lift devices over alerting functions, but of course, beancounters would alter that immediately from a safety buffer against runway overruns to more payload range. The alerting and sensors are a double edge sword, and forcing expedient solutions tends to come back and bite one n' all. Realistically, the growth potential of the B737 is approaching it's rational limits, and making changes from the devil we now know to institute new and novel things to find out seems a curious solution. That may be in keeping with other knee jerk responses however, like Colgan, an icing/fatigue/awareness event becoming a new industry of adding fluff that is covered immediately thereafter in greater depth and relevance than the course that Congress mandated.

Advanced alerting aircraft have fallen out of the sky for the same reasons as classic systems. Both from SA type I "sorry, I'm thinking of soup...." SA II, "what's it doing?" and SA III "what's that mountain goat doing in this cloud..?".
The potential for the advanced cockpit to become a distraction of its own has not been adequately resolved, and with the potential for compound problems to conspire to be new and entertaining, I doubt we will ever get a perfect solution. Sully's A320 would have had more noise' distractions than the NG, so perhaps we should all just go take up cycles instead. I did some work on the advanced HMI interfaces on spacecraft long time back; was interesting, and yes it was nice to have stuff, but, so is an iPad. Time spent on foam adhesion may have been more productive.
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Old 24th Oct 2022, 13:55
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Having flown the 737 200, 300, 400, 700 and 800 for a total of over 10000 hours, I can say it’s a great aircraft. A great aircraft that has reached the end if it’s useful life. A new aircraft ( or an updated 757) should have replaced it.
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Old 26th Oct 2022, 18:26
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I see Alaska Airlines has just inked another big MAX order. It appears they have already committed to taking MAX 9's in lieu of the MAX10 if (when ?) it is not certified. I think it is looking increasing less likely the dash 7 and dash 10 MAX variants will ever be built.
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Old 27th Oct 2022, 15:07
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Following Boeing's Calhoun's statements on CNBC yesterday, today Southwest CEO Jordan has also said that certification of the 737 MAX 7 - of which his airline has ordered quite a few - still is expected. The interview did not reach any specific factors concerning the alerting system update issue. The CEO did, though, indicate that if the airline had to switch to the -8 it would find a way forward, impliedly without much difficulty. Plus if I understood the q&a, if the airline ended up with some -8s now and some -7s later on following certification at some undefined future time, the mix of aircraft would not be a problem until at least a few years from the present.
((SLF-attorney still intending to post further on meaning - within scope of forum and thread - of "crime victims" court decision in Texas federal district court. Teaser: U.S. Sen. Ted Cruz filed a "friend of the court" brief in the case.))
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Old 27th Oct 2022, 15:41
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Southwest CEO Jordan has also said that certification of the 737 MAX 7 - of which his airline has ordered quite a few - still is expected ... The CEO did, though, indicate that if the airline had to switch to the -8 ... i
This situation looks more like the story of "The Emperor has no Clothes" every day.
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Old 28th Oct 2022, 19:59
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Originally Posted by SOPS View Post
Having flown the 737 200, 300, 400, 700 and 800 for a total of over 10000 hours, I can say it’s a great aircraft. A great aircraft that has reached the end if it’s useful life. A new aircraft ( or an updated 757) should have replaced it.
That statement says it all. The Comet was a great aircraft for its time but was doomed after the crashes following the window issue.
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