Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Virgin Atlantic

Old 25th Apr 2020, 08:34
  #321 (permalink)  
 
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[QUOTE=Phantom4;10762447]
Originally Posted by giggitygiggity View Post
It's not a state handout as such, but a credit line. They don't need to actually spend the money. I imagine Virgin and most others will, but it's not a handout.[/QUOTE

VS need to repay $200 Million to Delta,where’s the money?
If Delta really want to help VS they could convert this current liability to a long term loan. Might be a drop in the ocean, but at least it’s a signal of intent.
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Old 25th Apr 2020, 08:41
  #322 (permalink)  
 
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I think touch&go has hit the nail on the head about protecting taxpayers money. There is a fine line between keeping viable businesses going until the economy restarts and supporting businesses where the future is much less certain. It is not clear that success pre corona or signs of a turnaround as is being argued with Norwegian tell us how viable companies will be. Here in Germany the foreign minister has said that we should expect little or no tourism by air for the rest of the year. This was met with howls of anguish from the trade. But if he is right then business for holiday companies is going to be bleak for a long while yet and some will inevitably need to shut down. Condor is being supported and mates tell me they are quite busy flying stuff from China and agricultural workers from Eastern Europe. But that is clearly only tiding them over and what happens next is very uncertain. I am pretty sure that all airlines are going to look different if and when they properly restart operations.
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Old 25th Apr 2020, 09:12
  #323 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting to hear the views of the former Flybe COO...

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presente...irgin-bailout/
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Old 25th Apr 2020, 10:52
  #324 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by beardy View Post
So he is non resident and not a British tax payer, but wants the British tax payer to help his 'baby'.
Are you really that ignorant? You sound like one of the hoards of spittle flecked protesters waving their virtual pitchforks demanding something they have no real understanding of. Just to simplify it for you and your ilk, Virgin Atlantic is a British company, employing many thousands of people who all pay income tax and NIC to the treasury, as does the company. The chairman of the board of Virgin Group, Richard Branson, is a figurehead. He does not live in the UK and so isn't liable to pay UK income tax. Even if he did live here, he probably wouldn't be liable for any income tax as he puts all his income these days into charitable causes. That's beside the point anyway. The thousands of employees are hard working and very dedicated to the company and it is the employees who make the company. Their contribution to the government coffers is what counts. Not a bunch of tabloid reading, 'indignant but not understanding why', ill informed vitriolic, probably jealous, bandwagon jumping trolls. Go and find one of the many petitions out there to try and force the collapse of a brilliant airline to work for.This is a Professional Pilots website and you don't sound like one.

As Mark Twain said: “Better to keep your mouth shut and appear a fool, than open it and remove all doubt!”
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Old 25th Apr 2020, 11:44
  #325 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Capt PPRuNe View Post
Are you really that ignorant? You sound like one of the hoards of spittle flecked protesters waving their virtual pitchforks demanding something they have no real understanding of. Just to simplify it for you and your ilk, Virgin Atlantic is a British company, employing many thousands of people who all pay income tax and NIC to the treasury, as does the company. The chairman of the board of Virgin Group, Richard Branson, is a figurehead. He does not live in the UK and so isn't liable to pay UK income tax. Even if he did live here, he probably wouldn't be liable for any income tax as he puts all his income these days into charitable causes. That's beside the point anyway. The thousands of employees are hard working and very dedicated to the company and it is the employees who make the company. Their contribution to the government coffers is what counts. Not a bunch of tabloid reading, 'indignant but not understanding why', ill informed vitriolic, probably jealous, bandwagon jumping trolls. Go and find one of the many petitions out there to try and force the collapse of a brilliant airline to work for.This is a Professional Pilots website and you don't sound like one.

As Mark Twain said: “Better to keep your mouth shut and appear a fool, than open it and remove all doubt!”
What he said ^

and ‘Like‘
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Old 25th Apr 2020, 11:49
  #326 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by wisecaptain View Post
NHS ....Thats a public service ...... not a private company . Big difference and the NHS is beloved to the UK , its saving peoples lives right now so has unending public support and is a Political hot potato at the forefront of Boris political promise list ......
And yet here we have another Branson hater who cannot see beyond his frothy mouthed rants against government assistance in the form of loan guarantees for Virgin Atlantic. As usual, he/she and their ilk will oversimplify everything and refer to the NHS as some saintly, sunbeam sparkled, cherub ridden haven. It's only a matter of time before these people will simplistically throw in a retort about how Branson sued the NHS without knowing any of the details of the case. Irrespective of the fact that the NHS trust involved was acting irregularly with contracts and so were asked to explain but had to be taken to court and eventually they paid out because they knew thy were in the wrong and then all that payout was reinvested into the NHS. But I digress... the halo bearing crowds that stand there clapping at the heavens every Thursday evening are one of the main reasons the NHS is burdened because at the slightest encouragement they will try and sue the NHS, no thanks to all those daytime TV adverts for no win, no fee lawyers who ask if you've ever had an injury etc. Read this to get a better idea of how saintly everyone in this is:

If we love our NHS so much, why are we suing it for £83billion, asks MARTIN SAMUEL

"In the last NHS accounts, 2018-19, the cost of harm bill — the estimated claims bill incurred in one year — was approximately £9 billion.

In 2017, it was calculated that a one per cent pay rise for NHS staff required £500 million in funding. The cost of harm therefore equates to an 18 per cent pay rise — an increase the British public would no doubt support for nurses, if everyone could just stop suing them. And this is the tip of a legal iceberg. The estimated bill for all outstanding compensation claims racked up over the years comes in at £83 billion. In comparison, NHS England’s total budget in 2018-19 was £129 billion. In the maternity ward alone, for every baby born in Britain, £1,100 is incurred by the NHS in indemnity costs against negligence claims."
And here are some "facts" that the bandwagon jumpers can use if they can be bothered actually reading them:

Clinical negligence numbers steady, but rising costs remain a concern
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Old 25th Apr 2020, 11:51
  #327 (permalink)  
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I wonder if all the criticism written hear, was also aimed at the Banks when they were BAILED OUT (not offered a loan)?
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Old 25th Apr 2020, 12:16
  #328 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
With respect, that's Sky News's spin on what Bastian may or may not expect, hence its use of those weasel words "[he] indicated [that]", but it isn't supported anywhere in the article by a direct quote from the Delta CEO.

The nearest he gets is "If they are required to go through an administrative process ...", but he stops short (understandably) of predicting that's what's going to happen.

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Old 25th Apr 2020, 12:27
  #329 (permalink)  
 
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Easyjet:" We estimate that our operating costs burn is in the region of £30-40 million per week, whilst the fleet is grounded. This compares to circa £125 million when flying a full schedule". That's a difference of 10M a week! surely they can be a bit more refined than that, how the hell can you be 10M adrift!! so based on a 500M loan they have 16 weeks or 12 weeks buffer..
Branson doesn't need Virgin to continue, OK it will be a big dent to his reputation if it folds, On the other hand it does seem he is genuinely committed to keeping the airline going, mindful of the staff and consequences and frankly I don't blame him for wanting a piece of the pie from the treasury, after all we give millions in "AID" to Africa which sadly mostly gets spent on arms and fast cars for the dictators or criminals. If we regard Virgin as a "British brand" we should be rallying support for it. Whether or not the airlines will prevail after the restrictions without more hand-outs is obviously on the minds of the bean counters and we may be better of accepting a successful few rather than a struggling many.
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Old 25th Apr 2020, 13:59
  #330 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Kirks gusset View Post
Easyjet:" We estimate that our operating costs burn is in the region of £30-40 million per week, whilst the fleet is grounded. This compares to circa £125 million when flying a full schedule". That's a difference of 10M a week! surely they can be a bit more refined than that, how the hell can you be 10M adrift!! so based on a 500M loan they have 16 weeks or 12 weeks buffer..
Branson doesn't need Virgin to continue, OK it will be a big dent to his reputation if it folds, On the other hand it does seem he is genuinely committed to keeping the airline going, mindful of the staff and consequences and frankly I don't blame him for wanting a piece of the pie from the treasury, after all we give millions in "AID" to Africa which sadly mostly gets spent on arms and fast cars for the dictators or criminals. If we regard Virgin as a "British brand" we should be rallying support for it. Whether or not the airlines will prevail after the restrictions without more hand-outs is obviously on the minds of the bean counters and we may be better of accepting a successful few rather than a struggling many.

Virgin Atlantic (not Richard Branson) is not seeking a 'hand out'. It is looking for a line of credit of approximately £500m on commercial terms. If it can achieve that without guarantees from the UK government, I'm sure it will happily do so. However, this is a very difficult environment from which to make projections of future revenue, and so UK banks (which are obligated under the current government guarantee schemes to protect small and medium sized businesses by offering loans without preconditions, yet aren't doing so) are being extremely conservative. Ironic, given that they were rescued 12 years ago by unlimited grants from government plus a policy of 'quantitative easing' which effectively removed the consequences of their foolhardy practices of the previous 10 years.

Virgin Atlantic is not the most profitable airline, but it is a major player in the marketplace, and has around 25% of UK-US traffic. It was looking forward to both returning to profit and some moderate expansion in the short to medium term. There is no logical reason to believe that it cannot continue to hold its own in whatever shape the long-haul market takes after things reopen. As happened after the various shocks that the market has had in the last 25-30 years, there will be a short-term correction before the market returns to growth. It's up to the treasury (and its advisers Morgan Stanley) to assess whether or not the financials make a commercial loan viable or not, and what actions need to be taken by the company to improve its position from their perspective. It should also be borne in mind that the problems for the entire industry were not brought on by the actions of the industry (unlike the banks), but by the actions of governments in shutting down international travel.

However, the reaction by the public - and, surprisingly, people in this forum - to Virgin asking for help has been entirely emotional, uninformed, and essentially spiteful, and fuelled essentially by a distaste of wealth without any consideration of what that wealth represents in terms of the employment it has created, and the fact that it is almost entirely shareholdings in businesses and thus to be released for other purposes would require those shareholdings to be sold - at which point the notional extent of that wealth would be seen to be far less than the Sunday Times estimated in 2019.

The Virgin companies are great places to work, and look after their employees extremely well. Their existence generally works well for their customers as well, though inevitably there are individual stories where that is not so, as is the case for every large company. The UK-registered Virgin companies (which includes Virgin Atlantic) pay their taxes in UK, as of course do the vast majority of their employees.

I am about to retire from the industry, so the future of Virgin Atlantic will not affect me personally, but it would be a crying shame if its 10,000 employees and their families were thrown on the scrapheap because of the braying hoards of uninformed commentators who simply want to stick a finger up to Richard Branson
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Old 25th Apr 2020, 14:49
  #331 (permalink)  
 
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but it would be a crying shame if its 10,000 employees and their families were thrown on the scrapheap because of the braying hoards of uninformed commentators who simply want to stick a finger up to Richard Branson
I'm not sticking a finger to Branson, intact quite the opposite [QUOTE]if we regard Virgin as a "British brand" we should be rallying support for it[/QUOTE
We are all well enough informed to separate the man form Virgin enterprises, however, Branson the publicity machine is the one spearheading the very public campaign for the loan and as the "spokesperson" it is natural that his name is used in conjunction with the debate. The issue for some may be that Easyjet got a bail out loan even after paying "contractural dividends" to shareholders, NAS may get a a bail out loan, despite their catastrophic business model, other players in Europe with inflated costs will ,so why not Virgin? the sentiment appears to be emotionally fuelled by individual wealth, of Branson, yet no-one commented on the 1.6 Billion wealth of Stellios..why.. possibly because he argued against it! https://www.bmmagazine.co.uk/news/ea...orate-history/ OK, point scoring against the Board. Why on earth didn't Branson just let the Virgin Board CEO do the talking? he's the one who's now made this a personal crusade.
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Old 25th Apr 2020, 16:45
  #332 (permalink)  
 
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Several have cited a 'return to profitability' - was this not massively dependant on expansion (which helpfully coincided with the 3rd runway debate)? If an airline hasn't been making money in recent years given the market we've been operating in why would it make money in the tough years that will follow?
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Old 25th Apr 2020, 17:24
  #333 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by scroggs View Post
Virgin Atlantic (not Richard Branson) is not seeking a 'hand out'. It is looking for a line of credit of approximately £500m on commercial terms. If it can achieve that without guarantees from the UK government, I'm sure it will happily do so. However, this is a very difficult environment from which to make projections of future revenue, and so UK banks (which are obligated under the current government guarantee schemes to protect small and medium sized businesses by offering loans without preconditions, yet aren't doing so) are being extremely conservative. Ironic, given that they were rescued 12 years ago by unlimited grants from government plus a policy of 'quantitative easing' which effectively removed the consequences of their foolhardy practices of the previous 10 years.

Virgin Atlantic is not the most profitable airline, but it is a major player in the marketplace, and has around 25% of UK-US traffic. It was looking forward to both returning to profit and some moderate expansion in the short to medium term. There is no logical reason to believe that it cannot continue to hold its own in whatever shape the long-haul market takes after things reopen. As happened after the various shocks that the market has had in the last 25-30 years, there will be a short-term correction before the market returns to growth. It's up to the treasury (and its advisers Morgan Stanley) to assess whether or not the financials make a commercial loan viable or not, and what actions need to be taken by the company to improve its position from their perspective. It should also be borne in mind that the problems for the entire industry were not brought on by the actions of the industry (unlike the banks), but by the actions of governments in shutting down international travel.

However, the reaction by the public - and, surprisingly, people in this forum - to Virgin asking for help has been entirely emotional, uninformed, and essentially spiteful, and fuelled essentially by a distaste of wealth without any consideration of what that wealth represents in terms of the employment it has created, and the fact that it is almost entirely shareholdings in businesses and thus to be released for other purposes would require those shareholdings to be sold - at which point the notional extent of that wealth would be seen to be far less than the Sunday Times estimated in 2019.

The Virgin companies are great places to work, and look after their employees extremely well. Their existence generally works well for their customers as well, though inevitably there are individual stories where that is not so, as is the case for every large company. The UK-registered Virgin companies (which includes Virgin Atlantic) pay their taxes in UK, as of course do the vast majority of their employees.

I am about to retire from the industry, so the future of Virgin Atlantic will not affect me personally, but it would be a crying shame if its 10,000 employees and their families were thrown on the scrapheap because of the braying hoards of uninformed commentators who simply want to stick a finger up to Richard Branson
Very well explained Scroggs - pity we couldnt get this to the public domain / press somehow....
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Old 25th Apr 2020, 17:40
  #334 (permalink)  

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As Scroggs says above, Virgin Atlantic isn't the most profitable airline but it has been struggling for many years against BA with limited access to slots at LHR. As an employee myself with only 10 months to retirement, I can attest to the fact that Virgin has some of the best terms and conditions in the industry for its pilots. After over 15 years with them, it will be sad if they do not survive this crisis but as Scroggs points out above, it won't affect me personally too much. I do however worry about all my colleagues and all the employees of the company who are at risk of being thrown on the scrapheap should the company fail due to not being able to raise sufficient capital to last out the current slump.

At the moment, the company is flying cargo only flights with the B789 and A35K. Those operating to HKG and PVG are potentially soul crushingly long duties. Operated with 7 pilots (3 crews of 2, 2 and 3) and 4 cabin crew fire watch, the duties are over 24 hours and possibly up to 30 hours. Whilst the dispensation has been provided by the CAA for these out and back single duty period trips, I am personally glad that I don't have to operate them as I'm currently furloughed. 24-30 hours in an aircraft, no matter how look at it is not very nice and I applaud the crew who do operate these flights, the majority of which are on behalf of the NHS bringing PPE and other kit back.

Whilst some on here flippantly assume that should the company not survive then most of the employees will be picked up by whoever steps in to fill the gap, it is never quite so simple. Often, it takes a long time for these unfortunate victims to get re-employed and how many would like to bet that the Ts & Cs of any new entrant will never be as good as they have right now. It just pains me to read some of the remarks from posters who obviously have little idea of what they say and obviously just enjoy being part of the baying mob sticking two fingers up at Richard Branson as though he is going to be the one who suffers the most should the company fail. Virgin Atlantic is its 10,000 employees who make the operation work and it is those same employees who month in and month out her fill the HMRC coffers with their income tax and NICs.

Someone worked out recently that the pilots alone will contribute more than £850m to the treasury over the next 20 years. SO let's have a bit of common sense when posting on here, a forum originally designed for professional pilots. Outsiders views are accepted but think about how you appear to us if you go slinging unresearched vitriol.
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Old 25th Apr 2020, 17:45
  #335 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MikeAlpha320 View Post
Several have cited a 'return to profitability' - was this not massively dependant on expansion (which helpfully coincided with the 3rd runway debate)? If an airline hasn't been making money in recent years given the market we've been operating in why would it make money in the tough years that will follow?
No, that was part of a longer term expansion plan. The plan for return to profitability had a target of 2021 but was on course to be reached a year early until Coronavirus happened.
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Old 25th Apr 2020, 18:09
  #336 (permalink)  
 
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I don’t think the Government will be swayed by some bad press and a few flimsy petitions against Mr Branson. What they will be looking at is will the loan be repaid? Virgin has struggled to make significant profits in probably the most lucrative time in airline history. Look at the profits their nearest neighbour made in the last few years. The future is going to show a massive decrease in demand for airline travel. Virgins first request for help was turned down as their future business plan was too optimistic. How can they repay a £500 million loan in a massive recession when they couldn’t make a profit in the good times?

Do France and Germany have two full service airlines? The treasury have so many demands on them, I don’t envy their task deciding but I can totally understand how those inside the brand feel so strongly.. the banks advising will be doing this purely on the financials thankfully and not on tabloid press reports...
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Old 25th Apr 2020, 21:54
  #337 (permalink)  
 
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Seems that Branson has decided to sell after he failed to get a loan from the Government.



Branson races to find Virgin Atlantic buyer

Sir Richard Branson has set a deadline of the end of May to find a buyer to save stricken airline Virgin Atlanic from collapse

Sir Richard Branson is seeking a buyer for Virgin Atlantic and has set an end-of-May deadline to save the airline from collapse after a taxpayer bailout proved beyond his reach.

The Sunday Telegraph has learnt that the pursuit of a £500m government package has been effectively shelved and that the airline is now focused on securing new private investment in the shadow of potential insolvency.

Houlihan Lokey, the investment bank hired by Virgin Atlantic, has sounded out more than 100 potential financial institutions, with “all options on the table”, sources said.

Roughly 50 potential investors have asked for information and will be whittled down to a handful of bidders.


Telegraph
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Old 26th Apr 2020, 02:05
  #338 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cashash View Post
Seems that Branson has decided to sell after he failed to get a loan from the Government.
Just to add to this, I'm not sure that he has failed completely to get a loan - the Government have asked him to resubmit his bid, the FT reporting that they wanted more evidence that shareholders were not able to contribute, and to make the 2-5 year business plans that VS had included more realistic. So a loan is potentially still on the table, however the ball is in Virgin Atlantic's court to resubmit their bid. It seems that VS are instead looking elsewhere for a saviour.

On the face of it though it looks like a shaky business proposition: very few assets, massive debts including $200m to Delta as well as a lot of refunds, and potentially licensing fees for the use of the brand with a backdrop of a very unreliable market over the next months, even longer?
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Old 26th Apr 2020, 09:49
  #339 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cashash View Post
Seems that Branson has decided to sell after he failed to get a loan from the Government.



Branson races to find Virgin Atlantic buyer




Telegraph
Here’s a non-paywalled version if anyone needs it

Branson races to find Virgin Atlantic buyer
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Old 26th Apr 2020, 09:56
  #340 (permalink)  
 
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News Flash

Virgin Atlantic will survive, with or without Government assistance. The sad difference will be in the number of job losses. But survive it will. History has shown us that the Virgin haters out there are far far outnumbered by the Virgin Lovers. And our passion to survive will of course, eclipse anyones desire to see us fail. And we actually have far more experience than our name suggests!

We have thoroughly enjoyed our 36 years of proving the critics wrong about our viability, profitability and very importantly our desirability. 36 years of keeping up with and at times beating some pretty strong and sometimes down right devious competition. People say we never make money. Well we have always had to spend heavily and fight tooth and nail to maintain our position at Heathrow and Gatwick, which are some of the most fought over slots in the world. We have had to continually reinvest and reinvent ourselves to make sure we have a modern, clean and above all safe product to give our passengers. To have survived this long we must have got something right! Virgin employees are rather well looked after and we come to work with a smile on our faces, enjoying a pretty well funded and healthy working environment. We feel safe in the knowledge that the company is being run well and by people we trust and that have actually made some pretty good provisions for any rainy days. Richard is very protective about this part of his businesses and I feel his recent desire to seek assistance and assurance from all possible sources, including the U.K. government, has given some of the vultures out there, the scent of blood. But these vultures are mistaken if they think there is a carcass in the offing! He may have to dilute his share of the business, but he just wanted to make sure it survives, and this has drawn attention. He does that from time to time.

We started this journey 36 years ago with one single aeroplane. And fought hard to establish our brand and our very unique Virgin style, that despite the haters out there, has flourished and is clearly loved by those that choose to come back to us time and time again, in-spite of the machinations of a few very powerful adversaries. And then there is the workforce who time after time bend over backwards to get the job done and deliver for the customers and each other. We love this company and will fight to ensure it continues to be such a great place to work.

Right now we have only a quarter of our aeroplanes flying, but these few machines are gainfully employed on cargo only operations and every day sees their payloads growing, and with more and more new cargo contracts being taken on, we will soon need to get more of the fleet back flying to help with this.

This is all helping to minimise our daily cash burn and make our cash reserves go a little further. But we can all see what is in front of us, we will now need to make some very painful sacrifices in order to adapt and reconfigure to a more sustainable size, and emerge from this trimmer but fighting fit, for what will be an even tougher and very different market place.

It is heart breaking that we will have to make some very difficult but necessary cuts, and say goodbye to some of our family and friends, and those of us that remain will no doubt be asked to also make sacrifices, tighten out belts and go that little bit further. But we will do what it takes to survive. Our small size will give us the ability to adapt quickly and decisively. But I’ll say it again, we will survive!

We are going to be a thorn in Willie Walsh’s side for a long time yet! But we also wish our friends at BA and all other airlines well! As an industry and as a Company we will get through this together. #Bekind

Last edited by virgin mary; 26th Apr 2020 at 11:53.
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