Spectators Balcony (Spotters Corner) If you're not a professional pilot but want to discuss issues about the job, this is the best place to loiter. You won't be moved on by 'security' and there'll be plenty of experts to answer any questions.

Virgin Atlantic

Old 6th May 2020, 09:23
  #401 (permalink)  
zfw
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Somewhere else
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
"VS official twitter account responded to a customer this morning saying as of 5th May all 7 747ís will be retired"

From Rumours and News
zfw is offline  
Old 6th May 2020, 11:43
  #402 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 15,250
Received 89 Likes on 47 Posts
Originally Posted by esscee
Read the statement more carefully. "No longer use ALL of its 7 747-400's". Which implies some will be used as and when.
Either that, or more likely it was written by someone who doesn't understand the difference between "all" and "any".
DaveReidUK is online now  
Old 6th May 2020, 11:55
  #403 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Courchevel
Posts: 848
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Apparently there are 426 pilots at risk, that seems a lot probably around 40% of the total amount. I guess this can be mitigated by part-time,VR etc. What's happening to the A330 fleet will they keep going or is it all 350/787 from now on?
Count von Altibar is offline  
Old 6th May 2020, 12:05
  #404 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: In my own little world
Posts: 1,466
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Maybe a lot of the 747 fleet pilots were more senior and riding it until the end and may have taken part time. That would account for a higher figure per aircraft. Still a great shame to see them go as they were awesome to operate (and fly).
lurkio is offline  
Old 6th May 2020, 16:46
  #405 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Virgin Atlantic Airways problems are just the tip of the iceberg. still no sign of securing a government loan & yesterdays announcement might not have gone far enough. I think most of the senior 74 guys saw the light and moved over to the 78 fleet a couple of years ago however you will always get a few nostalgic guys that wanted to hang on to the end, unfortunately to their detriment as redundancies will be by Fleet/Rank/Matrix - what ever that is!
Holer Moler is offline  
Old 6th May 2020, 19:15
  #406 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: New York
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Look if Norwegian can apparently seem to stay alive I think VS will find a way too.
Adambrau is offline  
Old 6th May 2020, 22:07
  #407 (permalink)  
KYT
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Angry

Originally Posted by Holer Moler
Virgin Atlantic Airways problems are just the tip of the iceberg. still no sign of securing a government loan & yesterdays announcement might not have gone far enough. I think most of the senior 74 guys saw the light and moved over to the 78 fleet a couple of years ago however you will always get a few nostalgic guys that wanted to hang on to the end, unfortunately to their detriment as redundancies will be by Fleet/Rank/Matrix - what ever that is!
And many who werenít allowed to change fleet, whilst being reassured their position in the Company was safe!
KYT is offline  
Old 7th May 2020, 00:23
  #408 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
KYT's comments are correct -many senior guys on the 400 were held back from moving onto the 78 or the Bus too maintain a certain level of experience on the fleet- however they were assured that their positions would be safe in the event of another crisis and now they have been double crossed.- I sincerely hope that they have saved documentary evidence of this at the time it was published.

Some of the more senior guys have given the company 25 years + through thick and thin & yet guys who have been in the company less than 4 years will escape the Axe. What ever happens at Virgin Atlantic Airways things will never be the same.

Holer Moler is offline  
Old 7th May 2020, 06:35
  #409 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 285
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Whilst I hope the unions can drastically reduce the number, even the whole 744 fleet canít be anywhere near 426 strong? So there must be another method of selection as well. Good luck to all.
fruitbat is offline  
Old 7th May 2020, 06:46
  #410 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sussex
Posts: 137
Received 4 Likes on 2 Posts
Read the thread, " Fleet/Rank/Matrix"!
farefield is offline  
Old 7th May 2020, 09:24
  #411 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Unknown
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I thought VS was heavily seniority based and worked on the principal of LIFO?

Quite a few people started in Dec 2019 and Jan this year, is there some hope they won’t face the axe for certain?
Club World is offline  
Old 7th May 2020, 11:19
  #412 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Airborne
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
When times are tough the first item to go is the shiny new car sitting in the garage. Virgin should dump all those expensive new aircraft, they are all leased at around $1m/month, the 747 is a fraction of that. Fuel is cheap. ETOPS maintenance is very expensive.
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1399391
James7 is offline  
Old 7th May 2020, 11:45
  #413 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Doncaster
Age: 49
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by James7
When times are tough the first item to go is the shiny new car sitting in the garage. Virgin should dump all those expensive new aircraft, they are all leased at around $1m/month, the 747 is a fraction of that. Fuel is cheap. ETOPS maintenance is very expensive.
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1399391
Although there would be a cost to get out of those leases.
davidjpowell is offline  
Old 7th May 2020, 11:53
  #414 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Netherlands
Age: 46
Posts: 308
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by James7
When times are tough the first item to go is the shiny new car sitting in the garage. Virgin should dump all those expensive new aircraft, they are all leased at around $1m/month, the 747 is a fraction of that. Fuel is cheap. ETOPS maintenance is very expensive.
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1399391
$1 m a month sounds like a long term financial lease. Ironically, it is actually easier (and cheaper) to get rid of owned aircraft than leased aircraft (under normal economic circumstances). Owned aircraft you can just sell, leased aircraft require all sorts of negotiation and legal work, especially if the lease has not expired yet... Even when the lease term is over, there are lots of loopholes to jump through.
procede is offline  
Old 7th May 2020, 12:24
  #415 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: big green wheely bin
Posts: 836
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
And then thereís the cost of maintenance on and old 747 with 4 engines, compared to an A350 letís say.
Jonty is offline  
Old 7th May 2020, 12:25
  #416 (permalink)  
Alba Gu Brath
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Merseyside
Age: 55
Posts: 736
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by James7
When times are tough the first item to go is the shiny new car sitting in the garage. Virgin should dump all those expensive new aircraft, they are all leased at around $1m/month, the 747 is a fraction of that. Fuel is cheap. ETOPS maintenance is very expensive
It is well rumoured that governments are at least considering, if not demanding, that company loans and/or bail out are conditional on a reduced carbon footprint in the future. whilst the older gas-guzzlers may be cheaper to own, they may not satisfy the requirements for environmental consideration. I fear we may be seeing a quicker twilight for the B747 (and possibly A380) as passenger aircraft.
Big Tudor is offline  
Old 7th May 2020, 14:28
  #417 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Centre of Universe
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by lurkio
Maybe a lot of the 747 fleet pilots were more senior and riding it until the end and may have taken part time. That would account for a higher figure per aircraft. Still a great shame to see them go as they were awesome to operate (and fly).
If crews are part time the crews per aircraft ratio remain the same just the number of actual pilots would be higher. So if 2 Captains are 50% that makes 1 Captain.
747 en route LGW-GLA
GKOC41 is offline  
Old 7th May 2020, 15:31
  #418 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Airborne
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
At the rate Virgin are losing cash, the leasing companies may be getting the aircraft back sooner than later. Virgin could clear out all the seats and use the 747 as freighters, they would not even have the expense of putting the seats back. A few airlines are doing just that, filing the cabin with light freight.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhor.../#601af64a6093

https://www.forbes.com/sites/cathybu.../#9eb0e517c688

https://theloadstar.com/air-freight-...ighters-rises/

Last edited by James7; 7th May 2020 at 16:10.
James7 is offline  
Old 7th May 2020, 15:33
  #419 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
One of considerations that both BA and Virgin, along with other airlines, must take into account when they make pilots compulsory redundant is to use a procedure that is fair and reasonable under all circumstances. In other words they should identify a fair selection criteria which identifies those pilots they retain and those they make compulsory redundant.

They must not discriminate. There is no doubt that LIFO is a straight forward simple system. However, since the introduction of the equality and anti-discrimination legislation LIFO cannot be used as the only methodology. The reason being that it is probable that the most likely individuals selected for redundancy will be young and this will amount to age discrimination and allow an individual/s to have a pop at a company for indirect age discrimination.

It is important that fair criteria are used to select individuals for redundancy. If LIFO is one of the benchmarks used it should not be weighted more heavily than other criteria such as disciplinary records, attendance records (Absence for pregnancy should be ignored), work performance, qualifications, experience etc.

Companies have the flexibility to choose the most appropriate criteria to reflect the skills they wish to retain. Ideally selection criteria should be entirely objective but if qualitative criteria are also used they must be supported by evidence to avoid complaints of bias and opinion.

As an example, it is probable that if a company wanted to get rid of a whole fleet – B747 – then that would not be seen as being discriminatory because those positions would no longer be available. However, if a company was to make all the most junior captains and first officers on a fleet, (based solely on LIFO), redundant because they were reducing the numbers of aircraft operated, then that would probably be seen by the courts to be discriminatory. It would also allow those pilots the right of appeal against their compulsory redundancy.

Skilful negotiation is going to be required by pilot representatives in both BA and Virgin if they are to get the best deal they can for their pilots.
101917 is offline  
Old 7th May 2020, 16:30
  #420 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: UK
Age: 58
Posts: 3,262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
A process used for a bunch of engineers about twenty years ago was a points system based on a combination of LIFO, qualifications and (initially) sickness and disciplinary record

It was later agreed that sickness and disciplinary record were unfair and open to questionable intepretation.
TURIN is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.