Virgin Atlantic
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Apparently there are 426 pilots at risk, that seems a lot probably around 40% of the total amount. I guess this can be mitigated by part-time,VR etc. What's happening to the A330 fleet will they keep going or is it all 350/787 from now on?
Join Date: Dec 1999
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Maybe a lot of the 747 fleet pilots were more senior and riding it until the end and may have taken part time. That would account for a higher figure per aircraft. Still a great shame to see them go as they were awesome to operate (and fly).
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Virgin Atlantic Airways problems are just the tip of the iceberg. still no sign of securing a government loan & yesterdays announcement might not have gone far enough. I think most of the senior 74 guys saw the light and moved over to the 78 fleet a couple of years ago however you will always get a few nostalgic guys that wanted to hang on to the end, unfortunately to their detriment as redundancies will be by Fleet/Rank/Matrix - what ever that is!
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Virgin Atlantic Airways problems are just the tip of the iceberg. still no sign of securing a government loan & yesterdays announcement might not have gone far enough. I think most of the senior 74 guys saw the light and moved over to the 78 fleet a couple of years ago however you will always get a few nostalgic guys that wanted to hang on to the end, unfortunately to their detriment as redundancies will be by Fleet/Rank/Matrix - what ever that is!
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KYT's comments are correct -many senior guys on the 400 were held back from moving onto the 78 or the Bus too maintain a certain level of experience on the fleet- however they were assured that their positions would be safe in the event of another crisis and now they have been double crossed.- I sincerely hope that they have saved documentary evidence of this at the time it was published.
Some of the more senior guys have given the company 25 years + through thick and thin & yet guys who have been in the company less than 4 years will escape the Axe. What ever happens at Virgin Atlantic Airways things will never be the same.
Some of the more senior guys have given the company 25 years + through thick and thin & yet guys who have been in the company less than 4 years will escape the Axe. What ever happens at Virgin Atlantic Airways things will never be the same.
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Whilst I hope the unions can drastically reduce the number, even the whole 744 fleet can’t be anywhere near 426 strong? So there must be another method of selection as well. Good luck to all.
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I thought VS was heavily seniority based and worked on the principal of LIFO?
Quite a few people started in Dec 2019 and Jan this year, is there some hope they won’t face the axe for certain?
Quite a few people started in Dec 2019 and Jan this year, is there some hope they won’t face the axe for certain?
When times are tough the first item to go is the shiny new car sitting in the garage. Virgin should dump all those expensive new aircraft, they are all leased at around $1m/month, the 747 is a fraction of that. Fuel is cheap. ETOPS maintenance is very expensive.
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1399391
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1399391
Join Date: Mar 2008
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When times are tough the first item to go is the shiny new car sitting in the garage. Virgin should dump all those expensive new aircraft, they are all leased at around $1m/month, the 747 is a fraction of that. Fuel is cheap. ETOPS maintenance is very expensive.
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1399391
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1399391
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When times are tough the first item to go is the shiny new car sitting in the garage. Virgin should dump all those expensive new aircraft, they are all leased at around $1m/month, the 747 is a fraction of that. Fuel is cheap. ETOPS maintenance is very expensive.
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1399391
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1399391
Alba Gu Brath
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It is well rumoured that governments are at least considering, if not demanding, that company loans and/or bail out are conditional on a reduced carbon footprint in the future. whilst the older gas-guzzlers may be cheaper to own, they may not satisfy the requirements for environmental consideration. I fear we may be seeing a quicker twilight for the B747 (and possibly A380) as passenger aircraft.
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747 en route LGW-GLA
At the rate Virgin are losing cash, the leasing companies may be getting the aircraft back sooner than later. Virgin could clear out all the seats and use the 747 as freighters, they would not even have the expense of putting the seats back. A few airlines are doing just that, filing the cabin with light freight.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhor.../#601af64a6093
https://www.forbes.com/sites/cathybu.../#9eb0e517c688
https://theloadstar.com/air-freight-...ighters-rises/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhor.../#601af64a6093
https://www.forbes.com/sites/cathybu.../#9eb0e517c688
https://theloadstar.com/air-freight-...ighters-rises/
Last edited by James7; 7th May 2020 at 16:10.
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One of considerations that both BA and Virgin, along with other airlines, must take into account when they make pilots compulsory redundant is to use a procedure that is fair and reasonable under all circumstances. In other words they should identify a fair selection criteria which identifies those pilots they retain and those they make compulsory redundant.
They must not discriminate. There is no doubt that LIFO is a straight forward simple system. However, since the introduction of the equality and anti-discrimination legislation LIFO cannot be used as the only methodology. The reason being that it is probable that the most likely individuals selected for redundancy will be young and this will amount to age discrimination and allow an individual/s to have a pop at a company for indirect age discrimination.
It is important that fair criteria are used to select individuals for redundancy. If LIFO is one of the benchmarks used it should not be weighted more heavily than other criteria such as disciplinary records, attendance records (Absence for pregnancy should be ignored), work performance, qualifications, experience etc.
Companies have the flexibility to choose the most appropriate criteria to reflect the skills they wish to retain. Ideally selection criteria should be entirely objective but if qualitative criteria are also used they must be supported by evidence to avoid complaints of bias and opinion.
As an example, it is probable that if a company wanted to get rid of a whole fleet – B747 – then that would not be seen as being discriminatory because those positions would no longer be available. However, if a company was to make all the most junior captains and first officers on a fleet, (based solely on LIFO), redundant because they were reducing the numbers of aircraft operated, then that would probably be seen by the courts to be discriminatory. It would also allow those pilots the right of appeal against their compulsory redundancy.
Skilful negotiation is going to be required by pilot representatives in both BA and Virgin if they are to get the best deal they can for their pilots.
They must not discriminate. There is no doubt that LIFO is a straight forward simple system. However, since the introduction of the equality and anti-discrimination legislation LIFO cannot be used as the only methodology. The reason being that it is probable that the most likely individuals selected for redundancy will be young and this will amount to age discrimination and allow an individual/s to have a pop at a company for indirect age discrimination.
It is important that fair criteria are used to select individuals for redundancy. If LIFO is one of the benchmarks used it should not be weighted more heavily than other criteria such as disciplinary records, attendance records (Absence for pregnancy should be ignored), work performance, qualifications, experience etc.
Companies have the flexibility to choose the most appropriate criteria to reflect the skills they wish to retain. Ideally selection criteria should be entirely objective but if qualitative criteria are also used they must be supported by evidence to avoid complaints of bias and opinion.
As an example, it is probable that if a company wanted to get rid of a whole fleet – B747 – then that would not be seen as being discriminatory because those positions would no longer be available. However, if a company was to make all the most junior captains and first officers on a fleet, (based solely on LIFO), redundant because they were reducing the numbers of aircraft operated, then that would probably be seen by the courts to be discriminatory. It would also allow those pilots the right of appeal against their compulsory redundancy.
Skilful negotiation is going to be required by pilot representatives in both BA and Virgin if they are to get the best deal they can for their pilots.
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A process used for a bunch of engineers about twenty years ago was a points system based on a combination of LIFO, qualifications and (initially) sickness and disciplinary record
It was later agreed that sickness and disciplinary record were unfair and open to questionable intepretation.
It was later agreed that sickness and disciplinary record were unfair and open to questionable intepretation.
