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A380 'Hovering'

Old 16th Feb 2020, 18:58
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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9L/27R 12,799 x 164' (3901m x 50m)
9R/27L 12,008 x 164' (3660m x 50m)

by my old EGLL charts...
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Old 16th Feb 2020, 19:01
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Brookmans Park View Post
Am I missing something here the Sky video is an obvious fake.A380 apparently skating over the grass at LHR is miraculous and would have made the mainstream media
I think what you're seeing is an illusion caused by the grass being slightly higher than the runway exit that the aircraft is actually on.
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Old 16th Feb 2020, 19:02
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by blue up View Post
Width of Heathrow runways is 50m, isn't it?
Correct. 50m


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Old 16th Feb 2020, 19:15
  #44 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by RoyHudd View Post
Hey fantom, you weren't infallible. You scared me a couple of times, but I was in no position to chop you
Well, you would have saved a lot of people a lot of trouble if you had !
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Old 16th Feb 2020, 20:01
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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AFAIK the A380 is designed to land with drift on, the AP does not perform an ALIGN maneouvre until after touchdown so why should the pilot?
Never flown it but I have watched a x-wing landing at DXB on the pax video screen - in a lighter wind...
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Old 16th Feb 2020, 20:26
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by one dot right View Post
janetflight, look at the Fu(£ing rudder inputs (just in case you don't know, you are supposed to remove the drift, not add to it)
Big gust hits just before wheels on. Kicks rudder to compensate. Then wind suddenly drops and he runs out of lift. No time to de-crab or GA.

I don't buy "kicked rudder the wrong way" You just wouldn't. It's in muscle memory. You wouldn't turn a car steering wheel the wrong way, towards the thing you're trying to avoid.

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Old 16th Feb 2020, 20:33
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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With regards to the runway width, it is reported as 50m but both LHR runways also have a shoulder for their entire original length (c 9000ft) which adds another 25m each side.
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Old 16th Feb 2020, 20:47
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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For large Boeing aircraft at least, landing with crab only is an acceptable technique on a wet runway. It is the recommended technique on a very slippery runway.
The landing gear is easily capable of it.
There are plenty of videos on YouTube of 380s doing crosswind landings that look similar to this.
Bear in mind the telephoto lens effect exaggerates motion. And most of the rudder inputs you see are not the pilot but gust suppression / yaw damping automation.

Last edited by HPSOV L; 17th Feb 2020 at 07:27.
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Old 16th Feb 2020, 21:07
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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I saw this on Sky and was well impressed so thought I'd head over to PPRuNe where I'm sure everyone will be slagging it off and saying what a hash of it the pilot had made. Wasn't disappointed.
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Old 16th Feb 2020, 21:53
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Another classic PPRuNe thread ...and I challenge anyone to ‘kick the rudder straight’ the next time they fly an airliner.....hopefully someone catches that on YouTube!
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Old 16th Feb 2020, 22:52
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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We don’t “kick” commercial aircraft straight, we squeeze off the drift, and on appropriate types we can lower the in to wind wing too.

”Kicking” sounds so Daily Mail (or sky news).

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Old 16th Feb 2020, 23:08
  #52 (permalink)  
fdr
 
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Interesting set of viewpoints here.

If the group want to beat up the PIC and PF for this sort of video footage, they need to include the organisation that places the lump in this position. That is all of the flight operations organisation that sits above the driver, and the corporation that places the commercial pressure on the crew and the operations management.

Plane dealt with the issues pretty well all up, strong plane.

I can sympathise with the crew, I plonked a 744 into a certain airport once with a xw of 35K which was all well and good until the throttles were closed, and we got a gust of 64K of xw component. Total wind speed was over 80K on the gust. The drift angle increased so much that in the time it took to plonk on the ground I considered into wind rudder, or not, and in fact did put some in. I also considered a G/A, and decided that it would be just worse than the impending touchdown, and would not avoid ground contact. Rest of crew laughed their butts off on the taxi in. I got the QAR readout later and looked at it for a long time, but couldn't see a better solution on the day. The approach was within limits all the way until it wasn't and that was too low to avoid a touchdown from throttles closed. (I was the FO at the time)

The peak torsion loads are lessened in normal circumstances by having a yaw rate established towards the direction of travel. That usually removes the unpleasant lateral lurch that occurs when a touchdown with drift on occurs, with no yaw acceleration commenced.
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Old 16th Feb 2020, 23:13
  #53 (permalink)  
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I don't think the 380 gives a lot of room for top rudder.

It's the first time in my life I've sat and watched other people fly civil aircraft and really not wanted to be doing it. I imagine sneaking around on my preflight and gluing rollerskates under 2 and 3.
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Old 16th Feb 2020, 23:50
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TyroPicard View Post
AFAIK the A380 is designed to land with drift on, the AP does not perform an ALIGN maneouvre until after touchdown so why should the pilot?
Never flown it but I have watched a x-wing landing at DXB on the pax video screen - in a lighter wind...

Wrong ! Where did you get info regarding 380 landing . Without going into detail ," decrab " is the only approved x wind landing technique.
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Old 17th Feb 2020, 00:16
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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From the Airbus Brochure "Safety First" #15 February 2013 © Airbus S.A.S.:

===========
FINAL APPROACH

In crosswind conditions, the flight crew should fly a "crabbed" final approach wings level, with the aircraft (cockpit) positioned on the extended runway centerline until the flare.

FLARE
The objectives of the lateral and directional control of the aircraft during the flare are:
• To land on the centerline
• To minimize the loads on the main landing gear.

The recommended de-crab technique is to use the following:
• The rudder to align the aircraft with the runway heading during the flare
• The roll control, if needed, to maintain the aircraft on the runway centerline.
The flight crew should counteract any tendency to drift downwind by an appropriate lateral(roll) input on the sidestick.

In the case of strong crosswind during the de-crab phase, the PF should be prepared to add small bank angle into the wind to maintain the aircraft on the runway centerline. The flight crew can land the aircraft with a partial de-crab (i.e. a residual crab angle up to about 5 deg) to prevent an excessive bank. This technique prevents wing tip or engine nacelle strike caused by an excessive bank angle. Therefore it is wise to know what the maximum bank angle is during the flare phase for the type you are flying so as to ensure no such strikes. As a consequence, this can result in touching down with some bank angle into the wind, therefore, with the upwind landing gear first.
===========

I will leave it to the professional pilots, engineers, and/or physicists to confirm/refute the PF met these Airbus parameters based only on this video evidence.

My opinion is that the crew did the best they could, with what they had, at the time they had it.
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Old 17th Feb 2020, 00:39
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PerPurumTonantes View Post
. You wouldn't turn a car steering wheel the wrong way, towards the thing you're trying to avoid.
Ever heard of scandinavian flick?
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Old 17th Feb 2020, 01:15
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Mrs Serf was a passenger in this flight, she is a frequent flyer on this airline and others. Said it was a ‘firm’ landing....but not the worst she’d experienced.
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Old 17th Feb 2020, 01:34
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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The only issue I see is they flared just a tad too early, which on the 380 makes the drift worse as there is no going back should you push ahead. I have no idea when they went idle power so hard to say of that’s another issue.

Rudder inputs are FBW on final not the pilot playing with their feet!

This will actually be a good video of the sensation of an early flare.

We we all have our good and bad days. I did something similar the other day. Whoopsy.
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Old 17th Feb 2020, 02:04
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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I guess that would have been somewhat uncomfortable down the back of the airplane
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Old 17th Feb 2020, 04:14
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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benefit of the doubt.

Originally Posted by 7478ti View Post
After having done this many times in the Whale, up to 48 kts direct cross, including even with #1 or #4 shutdown, .... e.g., at KEF, ....both manually and with A/L, ...it would be my advice that one needs to know both the actual wind and gust environment, as well as the instantaneous drift rate and accelerations, and fuel state, and alternates state, and other factors too, ....so as to be able to make a reliable judgement about either pilot technique, use of rudder and lateral control, or flare technique. So... Perhaps an assessment might be best left to the crew's chief pilot to review all those kinds of parameters, as well as the DFDR data, before making any judgement, other than being thankful that in the end it apparently turned out to be a successful landing, with the aircraft appearing to be undamaged? Have we stopped giving the flight crews who were in the seat, at least the benefit of the doubt?
Fully agree with what's been written by 7478ti. The posts calling for termination of the pilots or slagging off their technique . We call ourselves professionals too , ironic .
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