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Safety is everyone's responsibility - de-icing

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Safety is everyone's responsibility - de-icing

Old 15th Dec 2019, 05:47
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Safety is everyone's responsibility - de-icing

This article caught my eye

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel...-a9245106.html

Although late in the day, safety was assured by the action of a cabin crew member - the tech crew listened to the report, verified and ordered de-icing.

Safety won.



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Old 15th Dec 2019, 10:27
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"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
 
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Well done, and well done to the flight crew for listening. I once had a member of the cabin crew point out a safety issue to me, and she was right. We may be the captain, but that doesn't make us omnipotent.
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Old 15th Dec 2019, 11:09
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This is exactly the sort of thing that CRM is all about
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Old 15th Dec 2019, 11:56
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A few years ago one January sitting (SLF) in an EasyJet B737 (yes, that long ago) at Lyon awaiting take off for Gatwick, and there was a delay while we waited our turn to be deiced.

I had a window seat on left hand side and Mr Know-it-All had the window seat on opposite side. We each, unusually, had a row to ourselves as the flight was less than half full. Mr KiA was moaning to the cabin crew about the delay, and how in his opinion the wings did not need deicing. He couldn't see any ice, and why couldn't we just go. The chief CC then proceeded to give him a long lecture which I did not hear all of because she kept her voice low, but I heard her mention rime ice a couple of times and the word accretion was used a few times too. She obviously knew exactly what she was taking about, as Mr KiA shut up and did not utter another word.

I made a thumbs-up gesture as she turned away, and got a nice smile in return, but alas no free drink!

I remember wondering at the time if CC were trained in this sort of thing, or whether this particular lady was maybe a PPL when not working.

Last edited by tow1709; 15th Dec 2019 at 12:17.
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Old 15th Dec 2019, 13:07
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In the recent TV series on Easyjet, there was a scene showing a cabin crew pre departure briefing in which the senior CC quizzed their team on various things including recognition of rime ice. I was impressed, they seem to actively involve CC in overall safety, including stuff that overlaps with the role of the flight crew. I wonder if this is also done in other companies?
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Old 15th Dec 2019, 13:31
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Well done to all concerned.
I was sitting in an Transaero B737 in Moscow one wintery day.
I saw some ice on the wings, raised mu concerns to the flight attendant. She informed the pilots who ignored me. Fortunately, as I am here today, nothing untoward happened.
I did file a report but it was ignored.
The big lesson there was to never accept a non-European airline for crew travel in winter again.
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Old 15th Dec 2019, 15:24
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Interesting that of the cabin crew reporting. I was taking an A330 out of a northern german airfield. Their was some ice over the collector tanks (Inboard aft of the wing) this is perfectly allowable. However it was reported to me by a concerned cabin crew member. Company policy to take cabin crew reports seriously, so I got the aircraft de-iced so as not to undermine cabin crews confidence in reporting. Cost the company a "pretty penny" but hey how far do you take training. Yes I know I could of just told them it was OK, but suspect that would have undermined their confidence and would have resulted in them writing it up, which I suspect their managers would have taken further, with all that would have entailed.
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Old 16th Dec 2019, 02:11
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Mr KiA was moaning to the cabin crew about the delay, and how in his opinion the wings did not need deicing. He couldn't see any ice, and why couldn't we just go.
There's always one, isn't there!
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Old 16th Dec 2019, 17:59
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Originally Posted by IcePack View Post
Interesting that of the cabin crew reporting. I was taking an A330 out of a northern german airfield. Their was some ice over the collector tanks (Inboard aft of the wing) this is perfectly allowable. However it was reported to me by a concerned cabin crew member. Company policy to take cabin crew reports seriously, so I got the aircraft de-iced so as not to undermine cabin crews confidence in reporting. Cost the company a "pretty penny" but hey how far do you take training. Yes I know I could of just told them it was OK, but suspect that would have undermined their confidence and would have resulted in them writing it up, which I suspect their managers would have taken further, with all that would have entailed.
At least in the US takeoff with ice anywhere on the upper surface of the wing is prohibited. In my 330 training it was emphasized that ice could form on the upper surface of the wings over the tanks and deicing would be required without exception.
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Old 16th Dec 2019, 18:49
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Originally Posted by IcePack View Post
Interesting that of the cabin crew reporting. I was taking an A330 out of a northern german airfield. Their was some ice over the collector tanks (Inboard aft of the wing) this is perfectly allowable. However it was reported to me by a concerned cabin crew member. Company policy to take cabin crew reports seriously, so I got the aircraft de-iced so as not to undermine cabin crews confidence in reporting. Cost the company a "pretty penny" but hey how far do you take training. Yes I know I could of just told them it was OK, but suspect that would have undermined their confidence and would have resulted in them writing it up, which I suspect their managers would have taken further, with all that would have entailed.

How does an explanation of company de-icing policy ‘undermine confidence in reporting’?
Were there any doubts at all regarding the necessity for de-icing?
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Old 16th Dec 2019, 18:52
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Originally Posted by IcePack View Post
Interesting that of the cabin crew reporting. I was taking an A330 out of a northern german airfield. Their was some ice over the collector tanks (Inboard aft of the wing) this is perfectly allowable. However it was reported to me by a concerned cabin crew member. Company policy to take cabin crew reports seriously, so I got the aircraft de-iced so as not to undermine cabin crews confidence in reporting. Cost the company a "pretty penny" but hey how far do you take training. Yes I know I could of just told them it was OK, but suspect that would have undermined their confidence and would have resulted in them writing it up, which I suspect their managers would have taken further, with all that would have entailed.
Or you could have (not "could of" :-) showed them in the books where it says that the observed contamination was allowable. It would have satisfied the concerned cabin crew member(s) that you know what you are doing and what you are talking about without the need to spend the company's money unnecessarily.
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Old 16th Dec 2019, 19:39
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The Captain is reported as saying "that during the walk around they had seen only snow on the wing but no ice, and therefore had not requested de-icing"

Were they hoping it would just blow off?
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Old 17th Dec 2019, 13:57
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Didn't an Air Florida crew at Washington once think the nice fluffy snow would blow off when they started the roll ? That didn't work out too well.
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Old 17th Dec 2019, 14:24
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Safety is everyones responsibility.

Hi Guys.
Heavans I rememberemember. I was in McLean V.a. visitinh my Inlaws the night Air Florida.It was a bitter night, driving wS horrufic, it was a wet slushy sniw,how any experienced pilot would attempt to take off under the conditions without de..icing or having the wings brushed is quite foolhardy.
Rumour has it after T/O he could not gain altitude and the gear hit a bridge.is what I heard.
My father in law I Drove over to the Potomac.to have a look,snow sleaty snow everywhere, water black and foreboding. RIP TO THE POOR SOULS WHO PERISHED
v.
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Old 17th Dec 2019, 17:26
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733, I felt doing that would have made the cabin crew member in the future not bother to report as the smart a** captain would only say it was OK. Personally encouraging reporting seemed more appropriate at the time. Some time ago, when CRM with cabin crew was being developed.
Good discussion point at next CRM refresher, I do not think their is any right answer.
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Old 17th Dec 2019, 20:56
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Is anyone else uncomfortable about CHIRP being quoted in the media?
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Old 17th Dec 2019, 21:41
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CHIRP should give confidence to pax. Too many places don't have a safe warning facility.
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Old 18th Dec 2019, 03:34
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I remember boarding an Embraer in YOW on a drizzly dark evening and upon seeing a field of precip spatters on the wing, asked the cabin crew if that was ice.

Shortly after I was called to the jetway to discuss with a pilot who asserted that the OAT of +3C meant it couldn't be ice. I didn't open a discussion of the physics of cold soaked wings and near freezing precip, but did point out that on my own aircraft I'd be checking with my finger.
​​​​​​
A rampie was sent out to check the wing and determined no ice was present.

As far as I'm concerned, if there's any question, it's time to check.
​​​
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Old 18th Dec 2019, 10:16
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From the Airbus A330 FCOM PRO-NOR-SUP-ADVWXR:

SURFACES
CHECK FREE OF FROST, ICE AND SNOW
Check critical surfaces: leading edges, upper wing surfaces, vertical and horizontal stabilizers, all control surfaces, slats and flaps.

Note:Thin hoarfrost is acceptable on the upper surface of the fuselage. Refer to LIM-ICE_RAIN Definition of Thin Hoarfrost.

On the underside of the wing tank areas, a maximum layer of 3 mm (1/8 in.) of frost is acceptable.

(my bold)

Let’s be careful out there. No point trying to save time and money if you won’t be alive to spend it.


.
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Old 18th Dec 2019, 11:58
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Another point on de icing worth thinking of. What part of the tailplane can you take some contamination? The point. Being that the tailplane is an inverted aerofoil ie produces down force. I could ask what do they mean by underside
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