Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Safety is everyone's responsibility - de-icing

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Safety is everyone's responsibility - de-icing

Old 18th Dec 2019, 11:02
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The Air Florida accident was caused by more than just wing contamination (definitely not fluffy white snow). They had EPR probe contamination as well resulting in a heavily reduced thrust takeoff. They had almost no experience or training in operating in icing conditions. Dry snow contamination is an allowed contaminant in Cnada at least. Have to verify that there is nothing underneath. FAA did allow frost accumulation on the top of the 737 wing for a very short period of time. Not sure if that was a paperwork mistake, however it was rescinded fairly quickly.
jurassicjockey is offline  
Old 18th Dec 2019, 13:06
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lost again...
Posts: 787
Received 25 Likes on 14 Posts
Originally Posted by PAXboy
CHIRP should give confidence to pax. Too many places don't have a safe warning facility.
the fact that CHiRP exists should give confidence to pax - They don't need to and should not be given access to the reports.

How are people supposed to feel they can report freely if the next thing they know their "confidential" report is plastered all over the tabloids with the usual total nonsense spoken about it.

OH
OvertHawk is offline  
Old 18th Dec 2019, 17:21
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Wherever someone will pay me to do fun stuff
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
the fact that CHiRP exists should give confidence to pax - They don't need to and should not be given access to the reports.

How are people supposed to feel they can report freely if the next thing they know their "confidential" report is plastered all over the tabloids with the usual total nonsense spoken about it.
First, if they canít see the reports and results how can they know that they can have confidence? Second, itís confidential. No-one outside CHIRP or involved in the event is identified - CHIRP is very good at de-identification. So what does it matter to reporter? Third, what happened to all the good work about transparency, encouraging reporting and just culture stuff that has developed over the last 25 years or so - has it passed you by completely?
LookingForAJob is offline  
Old 18th Dec 2019, 18:19
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Diego
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by jurassicjockey
The Air Florida accident was caused by more than just wing contamination (definitely not fluffy white snow). They had EPR probe contamination as well resulting in a heavily reduced thrust takeoff. They had almost no experience or training in operating in icing conditions. Dry snow contamination is an allowed contaminant in Cnada at least. Have to verify that there is nothing underneath. FAA did allow frost accumulation on the top of the 737 wing for a very short period of time. Not sure if that was a paperwork mistake, however it was rescinded fairly quickly.
Iíll probably be flamed for saying this, but itís gotten so that if a snowflake hits the wing, time to deice. At sub zero temps with dry snow falling, it was never a problem for years!

Another part of the Air Florida accident was that they taxied close to the aircraft in front of them hoping to ďdeiceĒ with warm exhaust. It just made water that was allowed to freeze on the wing. Obviously making things much worse.
cessnaxpilot is offline  
Old 18th Dec 2019, 19:52
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: ***
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Recently at JFK

About end of november we left JFK while it was snowing.
We taxied to the Deicing ramp, shut down and got deiced. In orange, type 1.
I had asked for antiicing also, and they started spraying the green type 4. Right wing got done, on the left one they only sprayed the flaps. The deicer guys left and did their shift change.
The ramp agent came back on the headset and reported the deicing process as finished. We only noted it was incomplete, because we have a taxicamera mounted on our A346.
I had them comeback and finish the job, told the deicer on the freq that this might have ended in the termination of 300+ lives and that I would report this.

If you are at JFK - beware!

The oposite is true for BOS - professional, polite, all up to international standard.
Admiral346 is offline  
Old 18th Dec 2019, 20:36
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Florida
Posts: 190
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Dave Gittins
Didn't an Air Florida crew at Washington once think the nice fluffy snow would blow off when they started the roll ? That didn't work out too well.
Air Florida into the Potomac was popularly viewed as caused by snow on the wings, but the actual root cause of the accident was failure to activate engine probe anti-ice leading to errant power settings due to false EPR readings. There were also CRM issues as the FO made comments on the slugguush T/O roll acceleration. And the final hole in the cheese was failure to firewall the throttles when the alternative was hitting a bridge!

There was a well publicized case years ago where an IB A340 crew taxiing out at KBOS was cautioned by several other crews about the snow on their wings, but blithely decided to brush off the warnings rather than the snow. Nothing bad happened.
Lake1952 is offline  
Old 18th Dec 2019, 21:55
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lost again...
Posts: 787
Received 25 Likes on 14 Posts
Originally Posted by LookingForAJob
First, if they canít see the reports and results how can they know that they can have confidence? Second, itís confidential. No-one outside CHIRP or involved in the event is identified - CHIRP is very good at de-identification. So what does it matter to reporter? Third, what happened to all the good work about transparency, encouraging reporting and just culture stuff that has developed over the last 25 years or so - has it passed you by completely?
It has far from passed me by. I recognise and appreciate it for what it is, what it achieves and what it can further achieve and participate in it fully.

I simply don't see how allowing the gutter press to publish it out of context with their sensationalist nonsense in order to sell newspapers either contributes to "transparency" and understanding by the travelling public or encourages people to report? But then what do i know - you've clearly got a much better understanding of this than me.

OH
OvertHawk is offline  
Old 19th Dec 2019, 11:02
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: UK
Age: 58
Posts: 3,262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by IcePack
Interesting that of the cabin crew reporting. I was taking an A330 out of a northern german airfield. Their was some ice over the collector tanks (Inboard aft of the wing) this is perfectly allowable.
This is the sort of comment that concerns me.

Clean wing policy means just that. In EASAland and FAAland AFAIK this policy is designed to take away any judgement call. NO ICE of any kind is allowed.

When the 737NG first appeared on the line there was this theory doing the rounds that frost between the red lines on the wings was allowed. No NAA had agreed to a change in the clean wing policy, but trying to convince some (mostly pilots) of this became a daily winter ritual.

I was even accused of being in cahoots with the de-icing company by one 'captain'.

Unless you are paying for it, you have no reason not to de-ice. End!

TURIN is offline  
Old 19th Dec 2019, 12:55
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: in the barrel
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by TURIN
This is the sort of comment that concerns me.

Clean wing policy means just that. In EASAland and FAAland AFAIK this policy is designed to take away any judgement call. NO ICE of any kind is allowed.

When the 737NG first appeared on the line there was this theory doing the rounds that frost between the red lines on the wings was allowed. No NAA had agreed to a change in the clean wing policy, but trying to convince some (mostly pilots) of this became a daily winter ritual.

I was even accused of being in cahoots with the de-icing company by one 'captain'.

Unless you are paying for it, you have no reason not to de-ice. End!
And should you have to pay for it, de-icing is all of a sudden subject to debate?
This sort of comment concerns me as well.
AviatorDave is offline  
Old 28th Dec 2019, 15:02
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: UK
Age: 69
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Eerily prescient, but to no avail...

... assuming icing was a contributing factor in the Almaty crash..
Pinkman is offline  
Old 28th Dec 2019, 22:07
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: CYUL
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
What you want to see on both wings before takeoff. Green Type 4, which gives you the longest holdover time. At least in the A-319, I could ask the F/O to look back and check if the right wing was "Green" as you could see the wings out the cockpit windows. Deicing bay in Montreal.
Retired DC9 driver is offline  
Old 1st Jan 2020, 02:34
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: deepest darkest recess of your mind
Posts: 1,017
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Cold soak fuel frost is permitted within defined limitations above and below the wings on the NG here since forever.
porch monkey is offline  
Old 1st Jan 2020, 04:13
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: FG central
Age: 52
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I once noticed a Jetstream 32 taxiing past the hardstand area I was waiting at. Noticed the kickstand still attached. Even though they were about 100m away, I waved my arms over my head and tried to make a dangling motion with my arm.
Must've worked, because they turned around and headed back to their hardstand area.
I also saw a gable marker get blown off the grass and onto a taixway once, in front of a 737. Did the same arm waving thing and they stopped the aircraft as well. The wind then blew he marker off the runway and I called airport ops to come collect it.
Doesn't take much to be aware of what's happening around you, but I'd rather say something and be told "we know" than watch damage or a smoking hole happen.
Typhoon650 is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2020, 06:32
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: N . Daarset
Age: 70
Posts: 294
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Cabin crew saved a couple of friends out of Moscow . Station Engineer replaced by local to save money . A/C deiced , thumbs up , taxied out ...
C/C to cockpit '' Should both wings be de-iced ? Or only one ? '' .
Taxy back , etc . Remedial action ... Station eng. posted back next day .
We were in the sin bin in Madrid [ UK 732 ]... Iberia A320 taxied past , lined up , We were squarking '' You've ice on your wings '' ...
They just departed ..... I've not trusted them since .

condor .
condor17 is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.