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Orange2fly A320 Alpha floor on approach to Muscat

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Orange2fly A320 Alpha floor on approach to Muscat

Old 25th Nov 2019, 04:24
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PH-TIM View Post
In my company the policy is: manual flight, manual thrust.
Congratulations! Although I’ll let you into a secret... Airbus ‘policy’ is to use maximum automation. Obviously we should all be familiar with manual thrust and capable of employing it whenever desired or required. But as a blanket policy, forcing pilots to pretend that auto thrust is only to be used in the case of an automatic landing is short-sighted. Where does your company draw the line? I assume it’s FACs off passing 100ft? It’s like this manual thrust policy is designed to simply let pilots think (assume) they’re better than the competition because they’re ‘going old school’. I’m not sure how it serves the advancement of safety. You should be comfortable flying the aircraft IAW the manufacturers design.
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 04:50
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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I‘d rather train autothrust on landings every six months in the sim and keep my manual skills up than the other way round.
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 07:10
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by neilki View Post
er? flown one much?
There are 2 ways to disconnect A/T on the 320 series. One (and don't try this at home..) is to push the A/T pushbutton on the FCP. The other is to use the 'Instinctive Disconnect' switches on the TL*
Moving the T/Ls to the Idle detent doe NOT disconnect auto thrust.
The thrust lever position is an auothrust limit only.
As in this case, Autothrust was indeed available and commanded TOGA even though the PF had apparently disconnected it by one of the above means. Alpha Floor is a function of Autothrust.....
*OK, manually going to TOGA does disconnect A/T but it's armed. semantics :-)
Not sure what plane (or planet) you are on, but I fly the A320 and the last few thousand times I did, I do remember the AT disconnecting every single time I pulled the throttles to idle.

Also, although the preferred (by AB) method is to push the ID buttons, if you use the FCP button, the thrust will be locked, and if you push the ID button the thrust will go to max CLB, so depending on the situation, the FCP button will be much less of a "don't try this at home" moment.

Last edited by hans brinker; 26th Nov 2019 at 05:10.
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 07:30
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by neilki View Post
er? flown one much?
There are 2 ways to disconnect A/T on the 320 series. One (and don't try this at home..) is to push the A/T pushbutton on the FCP. The other is to use the 'Instinctive Disconnect' switches on the TL*
Moving the T/Ls to the Idle detent doe NOT disconnect auto thrust.
The thrust lever position is an auothrust limit only.
As in this case, Autothrust was indeed available and commanded TOGA even though the PF had apparently disconnected it by one of the above means. Alpha Floor is a function of Autothrust.....
*OK, manually going to TOGA does disconnect A/T but it's armed. semantics :-)
I hope you are not a professional pilot flying the A320 series. Straight from the FCOM:

"The A/THR can be disconnected in two ways:
- Standard disconnection:
  • The flight crew pushes the instinctive disconnect pb on the thrust levers,
  • The flight crew sets both thrust levers to IDLE detent.
- Non-standard disconnection:
  • The flight crew pushes the A/THR pb on the FCU while A/THR is active/armed, or
  • The system loses one of the arming conditions"
If you are a professional pilot flying the A320 series, demand your money back, clearly your training was not very good at all, and please read up on primary human machine interfaces of the A320 series, this is elementary knowledge and, as in this case, can lead to rather embarrassing incidents.

By the way, Alpha floor is available after disconnection via the instinctive pbs as well, except if the system is deactivated via a 15 second hold on the instinctive disconnect pb.
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 07:32
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Closing the thrust levers DOES disconnect the Autothrust.

Disconnecting the Autothrust with the FCU PB will cause the Autothrust to disco but thrust is locked in the setting it was in, until the thrust lever disco buttons are pressed or Autothrust is re-engaged.

Alphafloor is available even if Autothrust is not engaged. It isn’t available f Autothrust has been perm de-activated (>15s on the TLs buttons) or if Autothrust has failed.
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 08:20
  #26 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by giggitygiggity View Post


Congratulations! Although I’ll let you into a secret... Airbus ‘policy’ is to use maximum automation. Obviously we should all be familiar with manual thrust and capable of employing it whenever desired or required. But as a blanket policy, forcing pilots to pretend that auto thrust is only to be used in the case of an automatic landing is short-sighted. Where does your company draw the line? I assume it’s FACs off passing 100ft? It’s like this manual thrust policy is designed to simply let pilots think (assume) they’re better than the competition because they’re ‘going old school’. I’m not sure how it serves the advancement of safety. You should be comfortable flying the aircraft IAW the manufacturers design.
Not about feeling superior. It takes appropriately 1 approach to get accustomed to having the AT on, if you usually have it off. The opposite is not true.

Using maximum automation all day every day is a recipe for disaster. You agree that we should be familiar with manual thrust, so as to be able to employ it if and when required. Where’s your line in the sand? Under what conditions would you consider it ok to use manual thrust?
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 08:22
  #27 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Denti View Post
I‘d rather train autothrust on landings every six months in the sim and keep my manual skills up than the other way round.
Spot on!

10 characters
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 09:38
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
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Originally Posted by giggitygiggity View Post


Obviously we should all be familiar with manual thrust and capable of employing it whenever desired or required. But as a blanket policy, forcing pilots to pretend that auto thrust is only to be used in the case of an automatic landing is short-sighted. Where does your company draw the line? I assume it’s FACs off passing 100ft?
So, are you familiar and capable flying with manual thrust? I think it's much easier flying a heavy abnormal when you are already used to flying with manual thrust, as you can focus on the real problems.

I think I just don't comment on your last sentence .

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Old 25th Nov 2019, 10:21
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Thrust lever to idle is my standard way of disconnecting A/T on approach. I wait for A/T to command idle then bring the thrust levers back to idle (it saves matching the donuts then pressing the disconnects). A/T disconnects and FMA for A/T is blank. Do the A320s you fly have some kind of mod? What does your FCOM say?
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 10:54
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by giggitygiggity View Post


Congratulations! Although I’ll let you into a secret... Airbus ‘policy’ is to use maximum automation. Obviously we should all be familiar with manual thrust and capable of employing it whenever desired or required. But as a blanket policy, forcing pilots to pretend that auto thrust is only to be used in the case of an automatic landing is short-sighted. Where does your company draw the line? I assume it’s FACs off passing 100ft? It’s like this manual thrust policy is designed to simply let pilots think (assume) they’re better than the competition because they’re ‘going old school’. I’m not sure how it serves the advancement of safety. You should be comfortable flying the aircraft IAW the manufacturers design.
never have I’ve seen bigger nonsense on PPRuNe than in the reply above.
Manual flight= manual thrust. And this IS approved and even encouraged by Airbus.
Airbus does NOT have “ use of maximum automatisation “ as policy. On the contrary mon cher.
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 11:20
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Missed opportunity

Originally Posted by Icelanta View Post

never have I’ve seen bigger nonsense on PPRuNe than in the reply above.
Manual flight= manual thrust. And this IS approved and even encouraged by Airbus.
Airbus does NOT have “ use of maximum automatisation “ as policy. On the contrary mon cher.
sadly many operators do... but she’s a dream to hand
fly
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 11:30
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by neilki View Post
AerocatS2A if you're addressing me... that's my point... you use the disconnect buttons to. disconnect the AT... its not a requirement to disconnect the AT to land, and it will remain engaged if you dont..... -with the TLA at idle around the Retard Calls....

This is from an a330 fcom...
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 11:43
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by the_stranger View Post
This is from an a330 fcom...
DSC-22_30-90-B-00011961.0001001
well I stand corrected; but this is inconsistent with other parts of the FCOM.. surely once disconnected it needs to be ‘reconnected’ why do they say disconnected, not armed.. because it will arm once TOGA is selected...?
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 12:15
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by neilki View Post

DSC-22_30-90-B-00011961.0001001
well I stand corrected; but this is inconsistent with other parts of the FCOM.. surely once disconnected it needs to be ‘reconnected’ why do they say disconnected, not armed.. because it will arm once TOGA is selected...?
"The flight crew arms A/THR:
‐ On ground
• By pushing the A/THR pb on the FCU when the engines are not running, or
• By setting the thrust levers at the FLX or TOGA detent when the engines are running.
‐ In flight
• By pushing the A/THR pb on the FCU while the thrust levers are out of the active range, or
• While A/THR is active (“A/THR” white on the FMA), by setting all thrust levers beyond the CL detent or at least one lever above the MCT detent, or
• By engaging the go around mode"

DSC-22_30-90-00011958.0001001 - ATHR arming conditions...

So even if being ATHR OFF, when you go TOGA for the go around, it will arm itself again...and actiavte when reducing to LVR CLB...
Otherwise imagine a balked landing go around, where you'd also have to think about arming ATHR afterwards? Nah
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 13:47
  #35 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by neilki View Post

DSC-22_30-90-B-00011961.0001001
well I stand corrected; but this is inconsistent with other parts of the FCOM.. surely once disconnected it needs to be ‘reconnected’ why do they say disconnected, not armed.. because it will arm once TOGA is selected...?
It’s not inconsistent. Poorly worded, perhaps. Alpha floor is available as long as AT is available. So even though you’ve disconnected it, the alpha floor function is still passively lurking in the background, ready to activate, as it did in this incident.

Had they disabled the autothrust, Alpha floor would not have been available. Makes sense?

Om the topic of using the FCU push button to disconnect, I haven’t read anything to suggest there’s anything inherently dangerous in doing that. You’ll just get THR LOCKED. I understand why they’d consider it non standard.
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Old 25th Nov 2019, 18:20
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Well I'm glad we got that sorted out.
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Old 26th Nov 2019, 00:47
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Because the speed holding ability of the bus is quite lacking in certain phases of flight. Being comfortable with disconnecting both or either the AP and ATHR can save a lot of headaches with flap over speeds etc.

ive personally seen it both go trending way below green dot, and also well into overspeed territory had myself, or the officer not intervened.

I.e. Airbus golden rule No 4
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Old 26th Nov 2019, 23:02
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cptkris View Post
Because the speed holding ability of the bus is quite lacking in certain phases of flight. Being comfortable with disconnecting both or either the AP and ATHR can save a lot of headaches with flap over speeds etc.
I would regularly, hand fly the 319/320/321 with A/T Active. Never saw the Speed Mode go wonky. Say Expressway Visual into KLGA, , at Peths go , "Auto Pilot Off", "Flight Directors Off" , "Speed Push", then Gear Down , Landing check. Hand fly, along the Long Island expressway, in Speed Mode. Pick up the VASI rolling out on final...
Same going into Las Vegas from the East, for the 19L/19R Visuals, or Slam Dunk into KSFO, from the North, ... "have you got the San Mateo bridge? cleared Quiet Bridge Visual..At that point, you better dive down, Autopilot Off, Flight Directors Off, Speed Push in the right turn.. Forget the Flight Directors "OFF" and you could be in a world of hurt..

Maybe you forgot to Activate Approach first, once..then when you go "Speed Push", the engines roar up to give you 250 knots..

Last edited by Retired DC9 driver; 26th Nov 2019 at 23:25.
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Old 26th Nov 2019, 23:17
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Retired DC9 driver View Post
I would regularly, hand fly the 319/320/321 with A/T Active. Never saw the Speed Mode go wonky. Say Expressway Visual into KLGA, , at Peths go , "Auto Pilot Off", "Flight Directors Off" , "Speed Push", then Gear Down , Landing check. Hand fly, along the Long Island expressway, in Speed Mode. Pick up the VASI rolling out on final...
Same going into Las Vegas from the East, for the 19L/19R Visuals, or Slam Dunk into KSFO, from the North, ... "have you got the San Mateo bridge? cleared Quiet Bridge Visual..At that point, you better dive down, Autopilot Off, Speed Push in the right turn..

Maybe you forgot to Activate Approach once..then when you go "Speed Push", the engines roar up to 250 knots..
I don't understand what you're getting at here? Are you saying you would fly these approaches with manual thrust or that you wouldn't feel comfortable flying them with manual thrust and instead use auto-thrust?

Personally, I would be of the opinion that if you don't fly these approaches with manual thrust, even on perhaps more challenging days, albeit with everything working normally, how can you count on yourself to fly them manually on the days where things may not be working perfectly and you're forced to do them manually for the first time?

Any sensible company policy should recognise this and thus encourage maximum appropriate use of manual thrust on all approach types, not just ILS to ILS, so that if they have to be done in anger due to systems failure/downgrade it's second nature to the pilots flying them, and doesn't eat up any additional capacity, as it's ingrained in the muscle memory not something that requires any extra thought, like riding a bike.
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Old 26th Nov 2019, 23:33
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Auto Thrust on in speed mode. Autopilot off. Less workload, in the busy New York environment. Though I would fly with both Auto Thrust/ Auto Pilot off, sometimes.. I found, after the DC-9 where thrust was ALWAYS manual, the Airbus, thrust levers were quite sensitive, and I didn't have all the power settings "memorized" for different flaps settings, configurations, unlike the DC-9.
I flew the B-767,- 200 and 300 (FADEC) much more with BOTH Autopilot and Autothrust off.
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