BAW and NY approach at it
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It’s a bit of a pain isn’t it ?
fly for seven hours to this bear pit, than having to go passive aggressive to get in. Bad taste. I avoid it, unlike BOS , which is much better but still very busy.
I got shouted at for leaving the strobes on slightly longer than usual ....”my radio ....”
the 190 to 5 was Florida , FLL. They actually have caused me the closest to go around on several occasions, due to being put above the GS in combination with their speed requests
fly for seven hours to this bear pit, than having to go passive aggressive to get in. Bad taste. I avoid it, unlike BOS , which is much better but still very busy.
I got shouted at for leaving the strobes on slightly longer than usual ....”my radio ....”
the 190 to 5 was Florida , FLL. They actually have caused me the closest to go around on several occasions, due to being put above the GS in combination with their speed requests
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I respectfully disagree. My manuals very clearly specify the requirement to brief and prepare the published missed approach. In the US under VMC you'll likely be vectored to rejoin the arrivals flow for a visual approach. In IMC; especially if you're the first to miss, you'll generally get the published while they figure out a new plan. (JFK, LGA, EWR last winter gave me published. EWR did it every time)
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It’s a bit of a pain isn’t it ?
fly for seven hours to this bear pit, than having to go passive aggressive to get in. Bad taste. I avoid it, unlike BOS , which is much better but still very busy.
I got shouted at for leaving the strobes on slightly longer than usual ....”my radio ....”
the 190 to 5 was Florida , FLL. They actually have caused me the closest to go around on several occasions, due to being put above the GS in combination with their speed requests
fly for seven hours to this bear pit, than having to go passive aggressive to get in. Bad taste. I avoid it, unlike BOS , which is much better but still very busy.
I got shouted at for leaving the strobes on slightly longer than usual ....”my radio ....”
the 190 to 5 was Florida , FLL. They actually have caused me the closest to go around on several occasions, due to being put above the GS in combination with their speed requests
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I guess that's a smart-alec comment, but it merits an explanation nevertheless.
Most BA pilots will try to avoid JFK (and other eastern seaboard destinations) as the "credit"/ block hours aren't very efficient compared to most alternative destinations. Then factor in the weather etc and personally I prefer almost anywhere else. eg the Far East, South Africa or South America, or the Caribbean. The JFK hotel is terrible!
Also remember that the throughput of new and upgraded pilots means many are unfamiliar with JFK. I've been flying there since 1993 but havent had the pleasure for 3 years. I understand many US pilots fly a more limited route network - so most are probably very familiar with JFK (and its myriad idiosyncrasies) (look that up!).
IMHO the radio procedures are very pressured and the controllers speak very quickly, often use too many words, and are simply frequently rude. The hazard is well recognised and the fact that US pilots leap to their defence is not a sign of loyalty or strength but a weakness.
Most BA pilots will try to avoid JFK (and other eastern seaboard destinations) as the "credit"/ block hours aren't very efficient compared to most alternative destinations. Then factor in the weather etc and personally I prefer almost anywhere else. eg the Far East, South Africa or South America, or the Caribbean. The JFK hotel is terrible!
Also remember that the throughput of new and upgraded pilots means many are unfamiliar with JFK. I've been flying there since 1993 but havent had the pleasure for 3 years. I understand many US pilots fly a more limited route network - so most are probably very familiar with JFK (and its myriad idiosyncrasies) (look that up!).
IMHO the radio procedures are very pressured and the controllers speak very quickly, often use too many words, and are simply frequently rude. The hazard is well recognised and the fact that US pilots leap to their defence is not a sign of loyalty or strength but a weakness.
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Heathrow manage to land an aircraft every 42 seconds and don’t rely on people “bringing their A game” or asking for silly speed requests. It’s unnecessary.
And for the record I’ve been flying to JFK for 25 years. Only airport I’ve ever flown to where I was asked to fly S turns for separation....
And for the record I’ve been flying to JFK for 25 years. Only airport I’ve ever flown to where I was asked to fly S turns for separation....
Vent your spleen on the phone, in an email, face to face, video chat or any other bloody way that’s not on frequency. Arguing on frequency simply has you rolling around in the mud and puts the other person back on their heels and clearly isn’t the forum to allow for meaningful exchange. A proper debrief is an opportunity for all involved to gain something, even you.
I’m not defending the controller, you shouldn’t be defending BA’s actions.
It wasn’t you by chance that day was it?
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I don’t think anyone covered themselves in glory with this episode. NY atc do a pretty good job with incredibly busy airspace.
As a general comment (from a Nigel) ATC in the states generally have procedures that work for local carriers but are mainly aimed at helping ATC first and foremost and have scant regard to the end user ie pilots. I’ve just learned to adapt and cope. I agree the issue could have been dealt with a simple “unable, 180 to 6 is the best we can do”. The extra stuff about what aircraft he was flying wasn’t really necessary. It’s a stressful business flying in and out of NY airspace for all concerned and sometimes this sort of stuff happens. As long we all keep it safe, so be it.
As a general comment (from a Nigel) ATC in the states generally have procedures that work for local carriers but are mainly aimed at helping ATC first and foremost and have scant regard to the end user ie pilots. I’ve just learned to adapt and cope. I agree the issue could have been dealt with a simple “unable, 180 to 6 is the best we can do”. The extra stuff about what aircraft he was flying wasn’t really necessary. It’s a stressful business flying in and out of NY airspace for all concerned and sometimes this sort of stuff happens. As long we all keep it safe, so be it.
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I don’t think anyone covered themselves in glory with this episode. NY atc do a pretty good job with incredibly busy airspace.
As a general comment (from a Nigel) ATC in the states generally have procedures that work for local carriers but are mainly aimed at helping ATC first and foremost and have scant regard to the end user ie pilots. I’ve just learned to adapt and cope. I agree the issue could have been dealt with a simple “unable, 180 to 6 is the best we can do”. The extra stuff about what aircraft he was flying wasn’t really necessary. It’s a stressful business flying in and out of NY airspace for all concerned and sometimes this sort of stuff happens. As long we all keep it safe, so be it.
As a general comment (from a Nigel) ATC in the states generally have procedures that work for local carriers but are mainly aimed at helping ATC first and foremost and have scant regard to the end user ie pilots. I’ve just learned to adapt and cope. I agree the issue could have been dealt with a simple “unable, 180 to 6 is the best we can do”. The extra stuff about what aircraft he was flying wasn’t really necessary. It’s a stressful business flying in and out of NY airspace for all concerned and sometimes this sort of stuff happens. As long we all keep it safe, so be it.
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Heathrow manage to land an aircraft every 42 seconds and don’t rely on people “bringing their A game” or asking for silly speed requests. It’s unnecessary.
And for the record I’ve been flying to JFK for 25 years. Only airport I’ve ever flown to where I was asked to fly S turns for separation....
And for the record I’ve been flying to JFK for 25 years. Only airport I’ve ever flown to where I was asked to fly S turns for separation....
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BA has a vast network, and that means that the average pilot may get to JFK just once a year, and often not for years at a time. So yes, BA aircraft go multiple times a day... but an individual pilot far far less so. The East coast of the USA can come as a wake up call to the longhaul pilot used to only going to some of the more gentler destinations. It is no coincidence that command courses and command checks are ideally carried out to the East Coast of the USA.
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Heathrow manage to land an aircraft every 42 seconds and don’t rely on people “bringing their A game” or asking for silly speed requests. It’s unnecessary.
And for the record I’ve been flying to JFK for 25 years. Only airport I’ve ever flown to where I was asked to fly S turns for separation....
And for the record I’ve been flying to JFK for 25 years. Only airport I’ve ever flown to where I was asked to fly S turns for separation....
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I regularly communicate with ATC at my home airport. How can they change to better accommodate international carriers?
The biggest difference I note (this is going to be specific to JFK with a comparison to LHR) is that an approach to JFK has a large number of unknown variables. From a visiting pilot’s point of view we never really know the plan.
I realise comparing LHR arrivals to JFK is perhaps unfair, given the complexity of NY terminal airspace, but going into LHR we have an arrival that will end at a specific hold, from there we will be given track miles to run, and consistent speed instructions (220 leaving the hold -180 on base - 160-4dme). Obviously this can vary given traffic and weather on the day but it gives us something to hang our hats on. JFK tends to be a mix up of vectors with very little info on distance to go and ATC expectations of speed. It leads to visiting pilots erring on the side of caution and expecting a last minute loss of track miles so we often start to slow up in expectation of this, which results in issues similar to the one in the transcript you shared. I think it really comes down to ATC sharing the plan as soon as possible - again I appreciate NY airspace is a special case and life isn’t straight forward for ATC. But asking a visiting heavy to fly 180 to inside 6dme isn’t going to work for most operators. BA approach SOPs are conservative, I’ll admit that, but that’s what we have to fly to, and we need ATC to work with us on that.
It can also be a problem at airfield like ORD and BOS when multiple runways are in use. The structure of these airfields, runway layout, airspace restrictions etc make ATC a challenge but the result seems to be the system is designed to protect controllers and make their lives easier, with pilots expected to work with the results. Pilots like consistency and don’t like surprises. Tell us the arrival runway as soon as possible. If we are going to get extended vectors then tell us. If we are going to need to keep speed up then tell us when we can expect to slow down etc. I appreciate it might seem like extra workload for a busy controller, but we don’t visit these airfields everyday and as a result we tend to be overly cautious when we aren’t clear what the traffic pattern/speed expectation is likely to be.
I don’t have a magic answer, NY airspace is what it is and comes with a unique set of challenges for all involved.
Even if BAW said “unable”, would ATC let them continue the approach as is; or would they still have broken them off the approach, and we end up with the same question being asked about why and this thread still popping up?
Maybe need a crystal ball for that, and never having flown to JFK, I don’t know what they’d likely do.
Maybe need a crystal ball for that, and never having flown to JFK, I don’t know what they’d likely do.
Lots of flying in NE corridor, (mostly to TEB) Also lots around ATL, HOU, ORD and SOCAL.
Everybody talks fast. Everyone wants something from you that you aren’t conveniently able to provide.
For example, I regularly fly both turbines and geared piston twins. Often, I’ll be held in the flight levels until 25 mi from the threshold by center, and turned over to approach with an an entirely doable approach in a King Air or Citation, but with no hope in heck in a 421. “Unable” works well, and forgoing snide vernacular on frequency, while stating my requirements when asked, usually produces the sterling service that those at busier facilities are winnowed to provide.
Everybody talks fast. Everyone wants something from you that you aren’t conveniently able to provide.
For example, I regularly fly both turbines and geared piston twins. Often, I’ll be held in the flight levels until 25 mi from the threshold by center, and turned over to approach with an an entirely doable approach in a King Air or Citation, but with no hope in heck in a 421. “Unable” works well, and forgoing snide vernacular on frequency, while stating my requirements when asked, usually produces the sterling service that those at busier facilities are winnowed to provide.
I would suggest that given the volume of airplanes, and the complexity of the airspace due to having so many airports so close together, there is no other place in the world with such a demanding ATC environment. A Heathrow predictable conga style arrival is simply impossible so yes crews need to bring their “A” game to NYC. Can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen
That being said neither side covered themselves in glory that day, but at the end of the day as several posters stated a pilot should either comply with the clearance or simply say “unable” ideally followed by what they can accept.
I always chuckle when the Europeans, and especially Brits condescending explain how wonderful their system is and how bad the cowboy Americans are, unfortunately the inconvenient fact is that for pretty much ever, the US has had the lowest number of aircraft incidents and accidents per 100,000 hrs flown than any other country.........
That being said neither side covered themselves in glory that day, but at the end of the day as several posters stated a pilot should either comply with the clearance or simply say “unable” ideally followed by what they can accept.
I always chuckle when the Europeans, and especially Brits condescending explain how wonderful their system is and how bad the cowboy Americans are, unfortunately the inconvenient fact is that for pretty much ever, the US has had the lowest number of aircraft incidents and accidents per 100,000 hrs flown than any other country.........
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As an observer LHR and JFK are chalk and cheese.
LHR highly regulated approach regime, always essentially standard IFR procedures whatever the weather GA traffic mostly kept out or strictly on for example a designated heli route.
JFK- more reliance on visual approaches and handling loads of traffic ( helis etc) that wold simply be face with a keep out not welcome here signing the UK. I have never heard a US controller say something like " remain clear of controlled airspace due controller workload" to GA traffic.
LHR highly regulated approach regime, always essentially standard IFR procedures whatever the weather GA traffic mostly kept out or strictly on for example a designated heli route.
JFK- more reliance on visual approaches and handling loads of traffic ( helis etc) that wold simply be face with a keep out not welcome here signing the UK. I have never heard a US controller say something like " remain clear of controlled airspace due controller workload" to GA traffic.