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Hard times for Norwegian

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Hard times for Norwegian

Old 22nd Apr 2020, 09:01
  #421 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: U.K.
Posts: 48
The lack of empathy towards Norwegian stems from the fact companies like them have driven down pay and T&Cs in the aviation sector. They cut financial corners meaning traditional airlines who are unable to do the same, turn to their employees for concessions in order to compete.
I do understand for those desperate to start in the industry that this type of company offered an opportunity, but it was at the expense of others.
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Old 22nd Apr 2020, 09:07
  #422 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
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The relationship between NAS and OSM was no different than Ryanair and Brookfield , apart from the zero hours nonsense and paying for training, uniforms LPC etc etc, but that's history and old hat now. What was different was the relationship between the Pilots and the Company, NAS appeared all warm and cuddly at sim and induction sessions etc but were not as transparent as O'Leary, at least you knew where you stood with the guy. Up to now I have no real complaints about the NAS business practices, however, it is becoming increasingly obvious that they are consolidating in their own borders and slicing off the limbs without a blink. OSM don't have a clue what the position is, all this nonsense about retaining pilots waiting for the turn round is frankly bull.. its like a garage paying mechanics with no customers, will never happen. IF, and its a big IF OSM can get UK Government JRS support then we can get the £2500 until June .. note.. NOT like Jet2 or Easy, BA, Virgin a "reduced topped up package" speaks volumes. What about the remaining "Bond" .. No idea, No Chance, No Hope. If NAS want to operate in the "grey areas" that's fine, but at least have a safety net for the staff when it goes wrong.. Loyalty works both ways. At the end of these times we still need healthy competition in the market and sustainable players, not opportunist chancers. BA has a big enough war chest to take all the capacity and crews if it so chooses, of course you will not get LHS at BA, but sitting at home crying in the beer isn't the answer either. BALPA seem to be just hot air at the time they are most needed..
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Old 22nd Apr 2020, 09:36
  #423 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
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Originally Posted by teamax View Post
The lack of empathy towards Norwegian stems from the fact companies like them have driven down pay and T&Cs in the aviation sector. They cut financial corners meaning traditional airlines who are unable to do the same, turn to their employees for concessions in order to compete.
I do understand for those desperate to start in the industry that this type of company offered an opportunity, but it was at the expense of others.
Exactly. I was invited once for their 787 and the pay for FO was 60.000 euro gross and TQ was 40.000. Thanks but no thanks. I must say this was in 2014 so it might have changed during the last few years but you know where companies will save money when there is no shortage of pilots.

Nevertheless, I am not happy to see them closing up. However this is almost inevitable. I wish everyone involved a somehow speedy recovery of the aviation business in general. Good luck
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Old 22nd Apr 2020, 09:49
  #424 (permalink)  
MDS
 
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Originally Posted by Superpilot View Post
Of course, no one can defend atypical employment practices but you have to reason a little and try to understand why they have emerged.

There are probably more airlines in Europe that now operate an atypical employment structure than not. And with the recycling of the aviation industry that's about to take place, I can see every single new player doing the same. Primera, Norwegian and SAIL all have had the same agency based employment structures. SmartLynx, Avion, Small Planet all have been hiring and paying offshore through agencies for years. What pattern do you see here? None of the above are British companies but still want/wanted to do business out of here. Agency based employees are an easy, risk-free option for them. The alternative is for them to open their own HR departments in each of the countries they operate in (impractical). To open a local HR department, you need to launch a local subsidiary company (SmartLynx UK, Smarlynx France, Smartlynx Germany). In the case of some of these airlines they would need to open 20! What difference does it make though? The terms will still be shit.

The real question is this (and it probably applies to most Western European countries)...

When was the last time a UK registered, wholly based and HQd company launched an airline in the UK? You'd have to go back a long time if I'm not mistaken! No business person with a brain would spend their fortune launching an airline out of a Western European country. Big Europe has made it impossible for Western European airlines to compete with The Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians and Polish. Even The Vikings can undercut us thanks to their pent up billions and easy finance on tap. So much demand out of the UK over the last decade yet not a single sizable and meaningful 100% UK based operator has emerged to plug that gap, it's always a foreign player. This is the real issue. Big Europe and the undercutting of our businesses and livelihoods.
It's 100% legal for airlines and corporations to do this. However it's also 100% legal to be denied any kind of taxpayer assistance when in situations like this.

Now the airline becomes a victim of its own poor decisions.

(NB: I'm criticizing the management, not the crews or frontline staff who are the unfortunate victims here)
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Old 22nd Apr 2020, 10:03
  #425 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
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I'm starting to get real curious now. What do people think they know regarding the T&C's of Norwegian? I'm thinking hard figures: Pay, Pension, rights, Roster, vacation.... Everything.

I can only speak for myself, but before I left Norwegian (LGW) I had 122500 Pounds Gross in the left seat excluding everything else like pension, food, Uniform, etc. but including some dayoff payments. Is that peanuts? I don't know... I had about 2 years in the left seat and less than 10 years in commercial aviation. I was given the days off I wanted 95% of the time and I was entitled to at least 2 weeks VAC during the peak summer period with another 2 weeks in the winter. We had a lot of nightstops, but I was commuting, so not a problem for me. Training was great and the overall atmosphere was very good in my opinion. Was there room for change? You bet! But from what I could see BALPA had a good relationship with OSM/Norwegian and we always had improvements in the horizon. From what I can remember they mostly fought for better check-in times etc. I'm pretty sure that's what everyone is fighting for these days. I flew around 800Hrs the year I left...
People in the company will know that T&C's in scandiland were on better contracts and as far as Spain goes it is/was very similar to the UK.... But with much lower living costs. And don't get me started about Finland and FCO before It closed!

In many ways I feel sorry that I had to leave, but the commuting life was not for me...

I'm very surprised about the uneducated "pocket economics" comments we have seen not only here, but also on the Virgin thread.

Everyone, including the likes of BA are apparently owned by someone playing dirty and each and every airline has skeletons in their closet. Does that need a change? Yes, off course it does! But that needs to happen via regulations and a change in practices - Not because of an industry-wide nuclear bomb deleting everything in it's path! We see so much BS uttered from people who know very little about the actual operational details and the economic structure of many of the companies mentioned! We have all met the type on the line! The typical "know it all" skipper who will spend hours explaining why the whole industry went south and how it was all much better in the old days! Ok, ok - we get it! ...Man....Get a life! I see some well-hidden Brexit stuff thrown in on a few posts here as well - Nice touch!

I love the typical: "Well, all my sympathy for the crews involved" comments who will then 5 sentences later be followed by "they knew what they got themselves into from the beginning - I have zero sympathy for NAS etc." type remarks. It's like saying "I'm sorry that you are alle idiots". People have a life that needs to add up in the real world. We can't all pick and choose where we want to work, and who to work for! And not everyone wants to be in a Legacy carrier like SAS, BA or any other for that matter!

How about some unity and support for once? This is bound to get a lot worse over time apparently and not even the most higly-skilled pilot with seniority going as far back as the wright brothers can consider themselves safe right now!

I feel like we are going in circles here without learning anything new, so I'm out. Personally, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for all of us! Especially in Europe at the moment. Anyone left here after this will be up against a sector who has already been bailed out across the pond....


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Old 22nd Apr 2020, 10:10
  #426 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
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Some very good points, well made!
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Old 22nd Apr 2020, 11:13
  #427 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Brexland
Posts: 75
£122500 GROSS to fly (I'm guessing) a 787 out of LGW 800 hrs a year in the LHS? Yes this is peanuts, embarrassing actually, worse than I thought.
​​​
Also those European Airlines you are suddenly so worried about are going to have a much easier time competing with their American counterparts without crap companies like Norweigen undercutting them.
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Old 22nd Apr 2020, 11:17
  #428 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Runcorn,Cheshire,England
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Originally Posted by SSDK View Post
I'm starting to get real curious now. What do people think they know regarding the T&C's of Norwegian? I'm thinking hard figures: Pay, Pension, rights, Roster, vacation.... Everything.

I can only speak for myself, but before I left Norwegian (LGW) I had 122500 Pounds Gross in the left seat excluding everything else like pension, food, Uniform, etc. but including some dayoff payments. Is that peanuts? I don't know... I had about 2 years in the left seat and less than 10 years in commercial aviation. I was given the days off I wanted 95% of the time and I was entitled to at least 2 weeks VAC during the peak summer period with another 2 weeks in the winter. We had a lot of nightstops, but I was commuting, so not a problem for me. Training was great and the overall atmosphere was very good in my opinion. Was there room for change? You bet! But from what I could see BALPA had a good relationship with OSM/Norwegian and we always had improvements in the horizon. From what I can remember they mostly fought for better check-in times etc. I'm pretty sure that's what everyone is fighting for these days. I flew around 800Hrs the year I left...
People in the company will know that T&C's in scandiland were on better contracts and as far as Spain goes it is/was very similar to the UK.... But with much lower living costs. And don't get me started about Finland and FCO before It closed!

In many ways I feel sorry that I had to leave, but the commuting life was not for me...

I'm very surprised about the uneducated "pocket economics" comments we have seen not only here, but also on the Virgin thread.

Everyone, including the likes of BA are apparently owned by someone playing dirty and each and every airline has skeletons in their closet. Does that need a change? Yes, off course it does! But that needs to happen via regulations and a change in practices - Not because of an industry-wide nuclear bomb deleting everything in it's path! We see so much BS uttered from people who know very little about the actual operational details and the economic structure of many of the companies mentioned! We have all met the type on the line! The typical "know it all" skipper who will spend hours explaining why the whole industry went south and how it was all much better in the old days! Ok, ok - we get it! ...Man....Get a life! I see some well-hidden Brexit stuff thrown in on a few posts here as well - Nice touch!

I love the typical: "Well, all my sympathy for the crews involved" comments who will then 5 sentences later be followed by "they knew what they got themselves into from the beginning - I have zero sympathy for NAS etc." type remarks. It's like saying "I'm sorry that you are alle idiots". People have a life that needs to add up in the real world. We can't all pick and choose where we want to work, and who to work for! And not everyone wants to be in a Legacy carrier like SAS, BA or any other for that matter!

How about some unity and support for once? This is bound to get a lot worse over time apparently and not even the most higly-skilled pilot with seniority going as far back as the wright brothers can consider themselves safe right now!

I feel like we are going in circles here without learning anything new, so I'm out. Personally, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for all of us! Especially in Europe at the moment. Anyone left here after this will be up against a sector who has already been bailed out across the pond....
its peanuts for a Captain, yes. You say it also includes day off payments AND excludes uniform&food? Do you have to pay for your uniform ??
after tax thatís less than 6k a month. Whilst not on the poverty line granted, itís well below benchmark for a Captain. Particularly so if you
Were on the 787
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Old 22nd Apr 2020, 11:28
  #429 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Originally Posted by 3Greens View Post
its peanuts for a Captain, yes. You say it also includes day off payments AND excludes uniform&food? Do you have to pay for your uniform ??
after tax that’s less than 6k a month. Whilst not on the poverty line granted, it’s well below benchmark for a Captain. Particularly so if you
Were on the 787
For quick info. Flew less than 700hrs/year in previous years, 737, Everything paid for by the company and the salary goes up every year. Bases in scandinavia is well above that. From what I can gather, it's quite ok for a 2nd year Captain in the EU in SH. I know the US is very different...
3Greens - Who do you work for since it's peanuts?
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Old 22nd Apr 2020, 11:28
  #430 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
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Posts: 54
Hi SSDK you make some good, valid points.

I will however say once again that low cost long haul doesnít work and Norwegian was on its way out before Covid 19.

Again, I feel terrible for the pilots and cabin crew but did they really expect it to continue? Flying LGW to OAK cheaper than a staff travel ticket with another airline just doesnít make commercial sense.

Furthemore, flying BKK cabin crew to Europe as passengers then have them operate to the US was a flagrant flouting of the rules. Were you also commuting using the amazing (and it seriously is amazing) text ticketing? Just put your flight details into the phone with your staff number and you get your booking reference and no tax to be paid. Great for commuting.

So, because of the amount of tax dodging carried out by Norwegian Iím not surprised if governments say no to their requests for a bail out.
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Old 22nd Apr 2020, 11:50
  #431 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Whitemonk Returns View Post
£122500 GROSS to fly (I'm guessing) a 787 out of LGW 800 hrs a year in the LHS? Yes this is peanuts, embarrassing actually, worse than I thought.
​​​
Also those European Airlines you are suddenly so worried about are going to have a much easier time competing with their American counterparts without crap companies like Norweigen undercutting them.
Stop embarassing yourself by talking about things you have no clue about.
I was quite happy with my salary and contract in general. Flying around 500h per year on 787. Flew less than many other legacy Airlines for not much less money. Got my d/O off request in almost every month exactly as requested and when there was an issue the company tried everything to solve it. Got more days off and vacation days than the American counter parts. And guess what, for some it's not just about the money but the lifestyle as well (that is if you have a life actually). Commuting Was possible, so you could live where you wanted. Obviously there were things that were not perfect but nothing out of the ordinary. So who are you to judge that it's a crap Company?
Please do me a favor and don't Spam the thread again with your half knowledge
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Old 22nd Apr 2020, 11:51
  #432 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Originally Posted by srjumbo747 View Post
Hi SSDK you make some good, valid points.

I will however say once again that low cost long haul doesnít work and Norwegian was on its way out before Covid 19.

Again, I feel terrible for the pilots and cabin crew but did they really expect it to continue? Flying LGW to OAK cheaper than a staff travel ticket with another airline just doesnít make commercial sense.

Furthemore, flying BKK cabin crew to Europe as passengers then have them operate to the US was a flagrant flouting of the rules. Were you also commuting using the amazing (and it seriously is amazing) text ticketing? Just put your flight details into the phone with your staff number and you get your booking reference and no tax to be paid. Great for commuting.

So, because of the amount of tax dodging carried out by Norwegian Iím not surprised if governments say no to their requests for a bail out.
I know very little about the LH part of the company to be honest. I just never found a job where you never handfly or land the damn thing more than a few times a month interesting, so you would have to ask someone else...

Can we get som actual number on how much tax you think Norwegian is dodging? I mean, REAL numbers so that we can actually use your statement as a conversation with facts? Not trying to be "smart". I'm actually asking. Besides, I actually think Norwegian is paying for the pax tax for people commuting via the text. I think most companies would expense that anyway...

As I have said before, I am not trying to justify how Norwegian is doing business. It's funny how the conversation is pivoted towards that over and over again. I'm just trying to make the case that as an employee of Norwegian you will most likely have a very statisfying life with ok pay and lifestyle. I think a company that can provide that is worth preserving. Furthermore, as I have said before, Norwegian is making changes for the good as of lately. Everyone is Unionised, AOC's were coming back to Sweden and they were driving towards scandinavian core values again.

As for myself. I am now working for what people would call a "Legacy carrier". Back as an FO in my home country and with a loooooong seniority list ahead of me for the left seat. It's not bad, but I do miss being in charge and earning the extra money!
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Old 22nd Apr 2020, 12:00
  #433 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Considering the current economic disaster unfolding , I think anyone having a job let alone the figures your talking about would be considered a godsend.
Norwegian and VS Capt+f/o's I suspect would gladly forgo their current salary levels just to be able to continue their much beloved aviation careers.
If these companies are shrunk to half their size and pay cuts ensue to help save them , how many would jump at the chance to be the lucky few ?
If these two were to be saved but with the requirement of new terms and conditions , would that be acceptable?
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Old 22nd Apr 2020, 12:01
  #434 (permalink)  
 
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So, in simple terms - actually so I can understand it - If you work for Norwegian, you’re really employed by OSM? Therefore, NAS can dump you at any time without any responsibility or obligation.
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Old 22nd Apr 2020, 12:08
  #435 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
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Originally Posted by SSDK View Post
For quick info. Flew less than 700hrs/year in previous years, 737, Everything paid for by the company and the salary goes up every year. Bases in scandinavia is well above that. From what I can gather, it's quite ok for a 2nd year Captain in the EU in SH. I know the US is very different...
3Greens - Who do you work for since it's peanuts?
BA. I was earning more than that as a 777 FO without any day off payments. That really just isnít anyway acceptable for a 787 Captain. Itís embarrassingly poor.
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Old 22nd Apr 2020, 12:09
  #436 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 3Greens View Post
BA. I was earning more than that as a 777 FO without any day off payments. That really just isnít anyway acceptable for a 787 Captain. Itís embarrassingly poor.
Just like your ability to read comments properly as it seems.
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Old 22nd Apr 2020, 12:13
  #437 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SSDK View Post
I know very little about the LH part of the company to be honest. I just never found a job where you never handfly or land the damn thing more than a few times a month interesting, so you would have to ask someone else...

Can we get som actual number on how much tax you think Norwegian is dodging? I mean, REAL numbers so that we can actually use your statement as a conversation with facts? Not trying to be "smart". I'm actually asking. Besides, I actually think Norwegian is paying for the pax tax for people commuting via the text. I think most companies would expense that anyway...

As I have said before, I am not trying to justify how Norwegian is doing business. It's funny how the conversation is pivoted towards that over and over again. I'm just trying to make the case that as an employee of Norwegian you will most likely have a very statisfying life with ok pay and lifestyle. I think a company that can provide that is worth preserving. Furthermore, as I have said before, Norwegian is making changes for the good as of lately. Everyone is Unionised, AOC's were coming back to Sweden and they were driving towards scandinavian core values again.

As for myself. I am now working for what people would call a "Legacy carrier". Back as an FO in my home country and with a loooooong seniority list ahead of me for the left seat. It's not bad, but I do miss being in charge and earning the extra money!
I have no idea how much tax they were dodging but you have confirmed that you paid no tax when you commuted. Is that correct?
Other airlineís commuters still have to pay the tax so in my view thatís a tax dodge.
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Old 22nd Apr 2020, 12:17
  #438 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Read my comment again Luke 258...

Also. I have 3 good friends flying 777 in BA on their 2nd and 3rd year. We always talk salary (A pilots favorite topic as always) and I never heard them even come close to more than 100 grand per year. I guess you are special or maybe a FO for 10+ years? Older contract? Dunno.... If true- then hey! I'm happy for you!
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Old 22nd Apr 2020, 12:19
  #439 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
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Originally Posted by SSDK View Post
Read my comment again Luke 258...

Also. I have 3 good friends flying 777 in BA on their 2nd and 3rd year. We always talk salary (A pilots favorite topic as always) and I never heard them even come close to more than 100 grand per year. I guess you are special or maybe a FO for 10+ years? Older contract? Dunno.... If true- then hey! I'm happy for you!
Well I guess you should check again who your reply should adress SSDK.
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Old 22nd Apr 2020, 12:20
  #440 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Runcorn,Cheshire,England
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Ah yes, the perils of an iPhone in bright light. My apologies.
For full disclusire, BA 777 FO. 17 years service and there’s no way that should be the same as a 787 Captain of 2/3 years.
I really hope there is some way to save your company as I don’t wish to see anyone out of work at all, but to justify those awful salaries for Captains at Norwegian is well, embarsssing.
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