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German pilot killed in Polish air show

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German pilot killed in Polish air show

Old 16th Jun 2019, 23:34
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by The Ancient Geek View Post
Not a normal spin, more of a spiral dive. Recovery did not start until he got the nose down.
It is very difficult to recover from the flat attitude, the golden rule applies - Nose Down, Full Opposite Rudder.
I would not expect an experienced show pilot to make such a mistake, it certainly looks like some form of incapacitation or maybe a control jam.
full blown spin...
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Old 17th Jun 2019, 00:00
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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youtube.com/watch?v=kUOAAMZrkrs

Slightly different perspective of crash
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Old 17th Jun 2019, 00:10
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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I wonder if the odd control inputs were from trying anything and everything after the normal recovery didn’t work?
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Old 17th Jun 2019, 01:05
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AerocatS2A View Post
I wonder if the odd control inputs were from trying anything and everything after the normal recovery didn’t work?
If a facebook post from someone who allegedly used to fly these dastardly things is to be believed, the recovery takes time. You need to have a lot of faith in your inputs being the correct ones and then after about 3 more spins only then will you start to see the result.

If you're panicking you'll instantly try something else and then something else ... except nothing else will work
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Old 17th Jun 2019, 07:10
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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I see flat spin transitioning to normal spin, and thereafter pro-spin controls (out-of-spin aileron, stick back, into-spin rudder) were held for many rotations. Perhaps the pilot didn't believe the flat spin had stopped. The spin finally stops and the aircraft starts to fly near the end but far too low for a recovery. If the pilot was trying to recover from the spin at any point why wouldn't the stick be put forward and the rudder applied out of the spin? Either one of these would stop the spin on most aircraft. The only explanation is that the pilot wanted the spin to continue for some reason. Incapacitation doesn't seem likely, because all three controls would likely not be held pro-spin if, for example, the pilot passed out.
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Old 17th Jun 2019, 07:43
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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A320LGW

A normal Spin will stop immedietly in the Yak52, given correct Load. ( Backseat Payload was appr. 85kg max in the ones i flew. Western Chute is 7kg, russian Chute is 14kg..)

Invertes and Inverted Flatspin stops fine

A Upright Flatspin will take some time to recover in almost every Aircraft. The 52 is there no exception, its a heavy Beast with small Controls.....
But: It Will Recover! You are waiting up to 3 turns waiting for a reaction..... If you try something different, you have to start from A....
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Old 17th Jun 2019, 08:14
  #27 (permalink)  

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He went into the riverbank almost vertically at over 100 knots.
(K)not survivable. Rescuer will just find a mess of anatomical bits.

Mac
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Old 17th Jun 2019, 12:34
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gearlever View Post
Polish air shows victims
- 2011, one pilot
- 2009, two pilots
- 2007, two pilots
I can't believe nobody called out this bullshit framing. Are people who died in Germanwings Flight 9525 crash "victims of German airlines"? Is Germany's own record so spotless as to call out others like that? (hint: it isn't, Michelstadt, 2001 - 1 pilot; Kindel, 2008: 2 spectators dead,10 injured; Lauf-Lillinghof 2010: 1 spectator dead, 20 injured, Erfurt 2012: pilot killed; Eberswalde-Finow 2013: pilot killed doing illegal stunts).

The truth is that accidents during airshows happen more often than during everyday operation for rather obvious reasons, despite everything that has been done to improve safety since the times of Farnborough, Reno and Ramstein. If you know something about rules violations that might have had anything to do with this tragic accident, speak up by all means. But I somehow highly doubt that.
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Old 17th Jun 2019, 21:49
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fly Aiprt View Post
Grog,
The rudder is the primary control to stop a spin, and the elevator position must be so that most of the rudder area is subject to the slipstream.
Yes, to a point. If you watch the video carefully you will see that at no point does the PIC apply full opposite rudder and hold it. In fact the rudder changes places so much it is hard to understand what he was trying to accomplish, but for all the discussion about pro-spin and anti-spin aileron inputs it is a fact that without appropriate opposite yaw provided by the rudder autorotation will not stop. In actual fact this incident is somewhat reminiscent of my own experiences detailed elsewhere on PPRuNe. For whatever reasons the pilot did not apply opposite yaw for any sustained period of time and the autorotation continued as a result until FIT.


[QUOTE]The elevator nose up or nose down to recover from a spin depends on the configuration of the tail. Some aircraft (most Pitts for instance) require full nose up elevator to quickly stop spinning[QUOTE].

I have more than 1300 hours in Pitts S2A, S2B, S1S, S1T and S2S airplanes as well as as ton in similar higher-powered types. If you follow the direction "full nose up elevator to quickly stop spinning" you are going to be in for a long ride. The airplane will quickly mush into a deep stall, the autorotation will be sluggish but sustained, and I am guessing (because I have never tried) that you will not have enough rudder authority to overcome the deep stall the non-flying wing will be in. Normally once you have the aircraft autorotating you unload the airfoil as much as possible to increase rotational velocity and decrease drag. The airplane has enough rudder authority to keep it rotating even with elevator pretty much at neutral or just slightly nose-up. (Aside- if you want to go flat you bring in the power and then actually stuff in nose-down elevator to accelerate the spin if that's your desire for the day's entertainment...) In a normal spin, when you want to stop on a specific heading you release the loaded wings with roughly neutral elevator and kick opposite rudder. As the rotation slows you punch forward stick to fully unload the airfoil to 0G and use ailerons to fine-tune the rotation until you are on-heading and are pointed vertically straight down.

I have exactly 0 hours in any Yak so what I just wrote is not applicable here, other than as it applies to all aircraft types. In any case based on the video evidence it appears that the pilot either did not or could not apply proper anti-spin rudder for a sustained period of time to effectively stop the autorotation. I don't know when Polish authorities release accident reports but this is one I would be interested in seeing someday, especially to see if control continuity was present.

Warm regards,
dce

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Old 17th Jun 2019, 22:18
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pilotmike View Post
Yep! One deployed on each wing....
lol.filler...
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Old 17th Jun 2019, 22:42
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Wonka,having read elsewhere of your `exciting`event,it crossed my mind that this looks rather similar; maybe a foot jammed the rudder,or a cable break.Certainly the rudder remained right,or to neutral,but inspin/outspin aileron tried briefly would make no difference.The pitch attitude appeared normal,and not flattish,and elevators fully up.....
Think we will have to wait for the report....sad event...
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Old 17th Jun 2019, 23:01
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wonkazoo View Post
For whatever reasons the pilot did not apply opposite yaw for any sustained period of time and the autorotation continued as a result until FIT.
Agreed.
Yet the airplane finally stopped spinning to the right, but much too low to recover, and even departed to the left.


I have more than 1300 hours in Pitts S2A, S2B, S1S, S1T and S2S airplanes as well as as ton in similar higher-powered types. If you follow the direction "full nose up elevator to quickly stop spinning" you are going to be in for a long ride. The airplane will quickly mush into a deep stall, the autorotation will be sluggish but sustained, and I am guessing (because I have never tried) that you will not have enough rudder authority to overcome the deep stall the non-flying wing will be in
I'll agree that the method you describe in the rest of your message is very close to what we use in advanced aerobatics to stop the spin on-heading and achieve the correct (from the Aresti point of view) vertical attitude.
But we usually don't do full blown multi-turn spins or flat spins in competitions.

Concerning multiturn/flat spin recovery, things are a bit different.
Of course full opposite rudder, and throttle closed.
I can tell you - because I tried - that the "stick aft" recovery technique works in the S2B. I'm talking of spin recovery, so the airplane is already stalled and spinning. And the "stick forward" is not so good an idea.

Of course I'll not suggest you try if you don't feel confident, but yes the technique works.

The following document might be of interest and is in accordance with Eric Müller's "Flight unlimited" chapter on spins.
http://www.sv4.com/Docs/Spins%20in%2...%20special.PDF
As an experienced aerobatics pilot, you know spins are an infinite discussion subject among pilots, even those who never do spins^^!
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Old 17th Jun 2019, 23:43
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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gearlever
"Polish air shows victims
- 2011, one pilot
- 2009, two pilots
- 2007, two pilots"

The record of the Toronto Air Show alone is much worse. I saw seven men killed in one crash in 2005. During my time living in Canada, at least two other pilots were killed at that annual CNE event. Spookily, at the time of the Toronto Nimrod crash, which occurred in my "backyard" since I was living on a boat there, I was reading a book about UK military crashes, almost all at air shows or doing a public stunt. Air shows are in general dangerous, since pilots are performing exhibition manouvers in non-routine conditions.

EDIT: The book selected crashes mainly at air shows and the like. That does not mean that most military crashes have been at air shows. The book (IIRC) was: "Crash! Military Aircraft Disasters, Accidents and Incidents", by Andrew Brookes (1991). One which affected me as a child was the 1956 Vulcan crash at Heathrow; that plane had flown over my school in New Zealand, which left a lifelong impression.

Last edited by czarnajama; 18th Jun 2019 at 14:55. Reason: Clarification
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Old 18th Jun 2019, 00:57
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fly Aiprt View Post
And the "stick forward" is not so good an idea.

Of course I'll not suggest you try if you don't feel confident, but yes the technique works.

The following document might be of interest and is in accordance with Eric Müller's "Flight unlimited" chapter on spins.
http://www.sv4.com/Docs/Spins%20in%2...%20special.PDF
As an experienced aerobatics pilot, you know spins are an infinite discussion subject among pilots, even those who never do spins^^!
Fly Aiprt- you are disseminating false information that if used could get someone killed. Spins are not either a mystery or an infinite topic. In actual fact deep knowledge and understanding is mandatory for any pilot performing gyroscopic or other hi-energy maneuvers that usually end in one form of autorotation or another. If they are mysterious or "infinite" to someone then that person should carefully consider performing aerobatics without a qualified instructor onboard.

From the document you cite: "Shoving the right rudder pedal to the firewall, I followed with full nose down elevator. After one additional turn, which seemed like an eternity, the aircraft pitched nose down and stopped spinning."
"At the time I mistakenly believed, like so many others, that the most important thing in spin recovery was nose down elevator to break the stall. I did not understand the importance of first applying full opposite rudder... When I tried to recover from the spin described above, I failed to apply full opposite rudder before pushing the stick forward. When I applied full nose down elevator, I accelerated the rotation."

Beggs Muller was basically the first thing we taught student aerobats when introducing them to unusual attitudes and aerobatics. What you describe- full aft stick for an upright spin recovery is simply bananas. Anything further back than a hands-off neutral is going to potentially keep the aircraft in an autorotational state. As I said- you might have enough rudder authority in the Pitts or other custom biplanes to pull it off, but my rather deep experience base indicates that if you try a spin recovery in an S2B with the stick back, and you insist on keeping it there, you will be doing so until you hit the ground. Indeed Beggs goes on in your document to show that "stick back" is the correct technique for an inverted spin... Again quoting the document: "...it could only mean I had entered an inverted right rudder spin. If this were the case the proper recovery would be to apply full left rudder and pull the stick back!"

Beggs goes on to say as he lists reasons that his peers may have died in a spin "maybe they failed to release backpressure, reversing the spin with rudder..."

NOWHERE IN BEGG'S WORK DOES HE EVEN HINT AT AN AFT STICK SPIN RECOVERY FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN AN INVERTED SPIN. Nor would he because as I said above- it's bananas and a sure way to screw you and your airplane into the ground. If you have somehow done this in a B then good for you, but I would not make a habit out of it as such a technique will kill the operator sooner or later.

Because I want these words to resonate I am going to break my rule about blowing my own horn. In 1996 I was the California Unlimited Aerobatic Championship Points Series Runner-up. I have performed at countless airshows and while it has been 20+ years I have won countless IAC competitions at the unlimited level. Among others Vicki Cruze was one of my students and I mentored her though her intermediate and advance days in the Eagle. Thus I am not some guy who likes to go out and do hammerheads in my 7AC for entertainment, and if you choose to ignore my advice here that's fine with me, but if you do please don't say I didn't try!!.

Warm regards,
dce
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Old 18th Jun 2019, 01:23
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fly Aiprt View Post
Grog,
The rudder is the primary control to stop a spin, and the elevator position must be so that most of the rudder area is subject to the slipstream.
The elevator nose up or nose down to recover from a spin depends on the configuration of the tail. Some aircraft (most Pitts for instance) require full nose up elevator to quickly stop spinning..
Well, I don't know how many models of Pitts there might be but I have flown a couple, with more than 50 hours in an S2 and found them to respond perfectly well to the standard spin recovery technique .i.e. stick forward (although not a lot is needed) and full opposite rudder - a powerful control on the Pitts. I don't see how the stall would have been eliminated with up elevator.
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Old 18th Jun 2019, 07:28
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by czarnajama View Post
I was reading a book about UK military crashes, almost all at air shows or doing a public stunt.
I would seriously question the research that went into reaching that conclusion. Ask for your money back.

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Old 18th Jun 2019, 10:39
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wonkazoo View Post
Fly Aiprt- you are disseminating false information that if used could get someone killed. Spins are not either a mystery or an infinite topic. In actual fact deep knowledge and understanding is mandatory for any pilot performing gyroscopic or other hi-energy maneuvers that usually end in one form of autorotation or another. If they are mysterious or "infinite" to someone then that person should carefully consider performing aerobatics without a qualified instructor onboard.
Thank you for responding.
I’d say you're confirming my point : when it comes to spins, strongly opiniated discussions tend to arise ;-)

We agree that concerning the spin mishap, the unfortunate pilot’s actions on the controls are not consistent with what we believe should have been done.
I suppose we’ll also agree that in competition and practice we rarely deal with fully developed spins, and the technique we use is not always the same as what could be advised for fully developed/inadvertent spins.

I’ll just say that although you are a far more successful competitor than I was, I’m an instructor not totally ignorant of things aerobatic.
The coaches that taught me advanced aerobatics were former unlimited world champions, and two of my co-owner buddies with whom we taught ourselves unlimited aerobatics eventually became world champions.
We never had any argument as to how to perform this or that, we thoroughly gathered information and analysed the aerodynamics of any manoeuvre before trying them.
We found that to stop a developed spin one has first to stop the rotation, and an "unblanked" rudder may help.

I’m not trying to convince anyone, just conveying what experience and aerodynamics taught me.

The rule I’ll never break on the internet is, never enter or dwell in, “experts arguments”.
So I’ll leave it here, we are both entitled to what our experience taught us, if we differ, then so be it.

Thanks again for offering your opinion, albeit vehemently expressed ;-)

BTW you’ll have no problem identifying the picture below – maybe you met the author – and discussing its merits or inaccuracies.



Best regards

Last edited by Fly Aiprt; 18th Jun 2019 at 12:09. Reason: Typo
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Old 18th Jun 2019, 12:19
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Originally Posted by capngrog View Post
As pointed out in Post #4, I was taught in primary flight training to use opposite rudder and some nose down elevator to recover from a spin and to leave the ailerons alone.
So was I, but "stick fully forward" rather than "some nose down elevator". (With the Chipmunk, the number of fatal failed spin recoveries led to trials in the '60s which found that an aerodynamic lock misled pilots into thinking that the stick was fully forward when it wasn't, leading to the spin flattening and becoming unrecoverable. In the words of one of the pilots involved (much later, out of uniform and our Chief Pilot) you needed to "get your boot behind the stick and shove it fully forward", with full opposite rudder as usual. As I recall, spin strakes were then fitted which alleviated the problem.

With a Prentice, on the other hand, I found out by accident that spin strakes achieved little.

My Dad was nearly killed when instructing in Harvards (1941) when a flat spin developed and the aircraft hit the ground in an absolutely flat attitude, still spinning. The student in the front seat died. Dad walked away. 2 years later the Lanc III he was flying back from Munich with no bombs left and half-empty fuel tanks was attacked by a fighter and severely damaged, set on fire, fell into a spin and exploded (ie the fuel tanks exploded) at about 6,000ft. He survived that one, too. Funny old world, isn't it?

Last edited by old,not bold; 18th Jun 2019 at 12:31.
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Old 18th Jun 2019, 13:20
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At 0:13 the stick looks to be back but the rudder appears to be straight. I can't see any deflection ( if at all ) until just before it goes in.
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Old 18th Jun 2019, 14:42
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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