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MAX’s Return Delayed by FAA Reevaluation of 737 Safety Procedures

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MAX’s Return Delayed by FAA Reevaluation of 737 Safety Procedures

Old 18th Oct 2019, 20:57
  #3141 (permalink)  
 
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This is Forkner’s “text” conversation.
https://graphics.reuters.com/BOEING-...20Document.pdf

extract:

“Mark Forkner 6:50 PM:
Oh shocker alerT!
MCAS is now active down to M .2
It's running rampant in the sim on me
at least that's what Vince thinks is happening

Gustavsson, Patrik H 6:51 PM:
Oh great, that means we have to update the speed trim descritption in vol 2

Mark Forkner 6:51 PM:
so I basically lied to the regulators (unknowingly)

Gustavsson, Patrik H 6:51 PM:
it wasnt a lie, no one told us that was the case

Mark Forkner 6:51 PM:
I'm levelling off at like 4000 ft, 230 knots and the plane is trimming itself like craxy
I'm like, WHAT?

Gustavsson, Patrik H 6:52 PM:
that's what i saw on sim one, but on approach”

Last edited by joe_bloggs; 18th Oct 2019 at 21:14.
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Old 18th Oct 2019, 21:23
  #3142 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by joe_bloggs View Post
This is Forkner’s “text” conversation.
https://graphics.reuters.com/BOEING-...20Document.pdf

extract:

“Mark Forkner 6:50 PM:
Oh shocker alerT!
MCAS is now active down to M .2
It's running rampant in the sim on me
at least that's what Vince thinks is happening

Gustavsson, Patrik H 6:51 PM:
Oh great, that means we have to update the speed trim descritption in vol 2

Mark Forkner 6:51 PM:
so I basically lied to the regulators (unknowingly)

Gustavsson, Patrik H 6:51 PM:
it wasnt a lie, no one told us that was the case

Mark Forkner 6:51 PM:
I'm levelling off at like 4000 ft, 230 knots and the plane is trimming itself like craxy
I'm like, WHAT?

Gustavsson, Patrik H 6:52 PM:
that's what i saw on sim one, but on approach”
It’s worth reading the entire thread
Burning employees ... sad. Happens everywhere but the consequences are worse in some industries.
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Old 18th Oct 2019, 21:28
  #3143 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by spornrad View Post
Hang on, does this mean that intentional MCAS operation was unacceptably severe?

So far I'd assumed that (low speed, low altitude) unintentional MCAS activation was so dangerous
because the failed AoA did not give the feedback necessary to limit the number of stab activations.
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Old 18th Oct 2019, 21:32
  #3144 (permalink)  
 
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Disclosure issue

According to WSJ article, Boeing reportedly stated it had not disclosed these documents, after producing them to DOJ in like February, to other federal agencies, because....the criminal investigation underway involved these other agencies also. What? I mean, white-collar criminal defense atty I'm not, and certainly I'm not amongst the thickly stacked ranks of those types in Washington, but does Boeing's reported statement even make sense to any extent at all?
The end-of-October House hearings should be dramatic.
Oh, and no less than Bob Clifford (a lead atty for plaintiffs in Ethiopian cases) today expressed significant concern that a Boeing employee had taken the Fifth.
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Old 18th Oct 2019, 21:42
  #3145 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by WillowRun 6-3 View Post
According to WSJ article, Boeing reportedly stated it had not disclosed these documents, after producing them to DOJ in like February, to other federal agencies, because....the criminal investigation underway involved these other agencies also. What? I mean, white-collar criminal defense atty I'm not, and certainly I'm not amongst the thickly stacked ranks of those types in Washington, but does Boeing's reported statement even make sense to any extent at all?
Well, it may make sense as a Boeing attempt to keep the information from Congress and the public -- for a while. It certainly doesn't make sense as justification. Boeing's lawyers certainly knew that DOJ would not likely share much from an ongoing investigation, with Congress or anyone else.

Oh, and no less than Bob Clifford (a lead atty for plaintiffs in Ethiopian cases) today expressed significant concern that a Boeing employee had taken the Fifth.
I expect that Mr. Clifford is more nearly ecstatic than "concerned." The fact that a Boeing tech pilot asserted his right not to incriminate himself will likely be one more piece of evidence for his argument for punitive damages, if the courts allow it. Of course, he probably has a strong argument without this bit.

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Old 18th Oct 2019, 21:44
  #3146 (permalink)  
 
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So 300 people died because of a flaw that was apparently already well known to the company. Manslaughter might not be a severe enough charge.

Volkswagen engineers went to jail merely for fudging an emissions test.
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Old 18th Oct 2019, 22:14
  #3147 (permalink)  
 
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"Ice cold Grey Goose" is not going to cut it for Boeing's C-suite and legal department this weekend. They're going to need something stronger and quite possibly unlawful.
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Old 18th Oct 2019, 22:16
  #3148 (permalink)  
 
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Towards the end of 2017, I had a company sim assessment in the only 737 MAX sim outside of the US. I believe the only other one at the time was at Boeing Seattle. I remember having to trim a lot during climb out and at some point telling the assessor the aircraft is not responding to my input and that my input had a lag. I feared I was just a crap pilot after 9 years on the Bus. He did apologise afterwards and we brushed it off as a crappy beta release simulator that clearly needed fixing. I got the job but thankfully never flew the type. Now certain that was MCAS on display right there.

My question is back then did any TRIs/TREs question this bad simulator behaviour and notify Boeing about it? If so did you ever get a response?

Last edited by Superpilot; 18th Oct 2019 at 22:27.
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Old 18th Oct 2019, 22:28
  #3149 (permalink)  
 
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OldnGrounded:
Yes among the scheming arts practiced by attys is the delay of disclosure. But here, DOJ would hold back disclosed docs from FAA, as FAA is trying to understand what happened, what it will take to return to certificated airworthiness, and whether those actions have been completed? I can't buy into that.
And these newly disclosed docs, it's sufficient to note the existence of a criminal inquiry, to justify the participants in the recently completed JATR not to have this info as part of their review?
And where FAA is striving to regain global confidence of many other high-level CAAs?
(Yeah, Counsel is a strong presence - a legend, truly - and the "ecstatic" term is apt, though in the particular setting, more restraint was indicated, and was shown. But you're absolutely right, it's like, Perry Mason moments do happen.)
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Old 18th Oct 2019, 23:02
  #3150 (permalink)  
 
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There is now cause to depose tech and test pilots, and go fishing.
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Old 18th Oct 2019, 23:31
  #3151 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by WillowRun 6-3 View Post
OldnGrounded: But here, DOJ would hold back disclosed docs from FAA, as FAA is trying to understand what happened, what it will take to return to certificated airworthiness, and whether those actions have been completed? I can't buy into that.
Well, we can't know with certainty, but it appears, at the moment, that (1) Boeing provided the documents to DOJ some time ago and (2) the FAA just learned about them when Boeing belatedly forwarded them to that agency.

I agree with you that it's almost incomprehensible that such a thing could happen, but that's what it looks like, for now.
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Old 18th Oct 2019, 23:45
  #3152 (permalink)  
 
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Salute!
@ Edmund.... et al
There is now cause to depose tech and test pilots, and go fishing
No need to go fishing. Just ask if there was ever a test of MCAS operation per the spec, and then a test when it was not supposed to activate ( high and low speed), and finally...... a test with the stick shaker going, unreliable speed and such warning lights and at 400 or 500 feet climbing out.

I have to minimize my legal comments/opinions, but feel comfortable critisizing the testing, certification and MCAS implementation of the MAX as a pilot and test engineer.

I do not wish Boeing to fail, but I have lost a lotta respect and trust. Anyone else here feel that way?

Gums sends...
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Old 19th Oct 2019, 00:05
  #3153 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gums View Post
Salute!
@ Edmund.... et al


No need to go fishing. Just ask if there was ever a test of MCAS operation per the spec, and then a test when it was not supposed to activate ( high and low speed), and finally...... a test with the stick shaker going, unreliable speed and such warning lights and at 400 or 500 feet climbing out.

I have to minimize my legal comments/opinions, but feel comfortable critisizing the testing, certification and MCAS implementation of the MAX as a pilot and test engineer.

I do not wish Boeing to fail, but I have lost a lotta respect and trust. Anyone else here feel that way?

Gums sends...
Gums,

I’m just an SLF. Worried about the certification system, hoping the FAA and even EASA get a good kick in the rear parts to keep them honest. I can understand the manufacturers trying to cut corners, but the certifiers are supposed to make sure they don’t get away with it. It seems improbable to me that the pilots didnt all share info over drinks, and that the guys at the FAA didnt know of rumors of the issues, even if they didnt officially know of them.
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Old 19th Oct 2019, 00:43
  #3154 (permalink)  
 
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"Anyone else here feel that way?" Yes, Gums, exactly that way. I had that "if it ain't Boeing, I ain't going" patch on my flight suit, and the attitude didn't change when I put on the white shirt. Until just under a year ago.
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Old 19th Oct 2019, 00:47
  #3155 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WillowRun 6-3 View Post
According to WSJ article, Boeing reportedly stated it had not disclosed these documents, after producing them to DOJ in like February, to other federal agencies, because....the criminal investigation underway involved these other agencies also. What? I mean, white-collar criminal defense atty I'm not, and certainly I'm not amongst the thickly stacked ranks of those types in Washington, but does Boeing's reported statement even make sense to any extent at all?
The end-of-October House hearings should be dramatic.
Oh, and no less than Bob Clifford (a lead atty for plaintiffs in Ethiopian cases) today expressed significant concern that a Boeing employee had taken the Fifth.
I recommend reading the Popehat blog and twitter (@popehat). Ken White is the majority contributor; he was formerly a federal prosecutor (AUSA) and is now in private practice as a criminal defense attorney. He blogs/tweets on topics such as what happens when a citizen is or believes he is under criminal investigation. I won't try to recount any of that discussion and recommend you read it for yourselves. The fundamental takeaway however is that the game changes the instant criminal investigation is so much as mentioned and every party involved will asses their personal, professional, and family situation for themselves.
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Old 19th Oct 2019, 00:48
  #3156 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OldnGrounded View Post
Well, we can't know with certainty, but it appears, at the moment, that (1) Boeing provided the documents to DOJ some time ago and (2) the FAA just learned about them when Boeing belatedly forwarded them to that agency.

I agree with you that it's almost incomprehensible that such a thing could happen, but that's what it looks like, for now.
It is not an uncommon practice for law enforcement to withhold documentation if criminal investigations are on-going (and can we be sure that is not happening now?). It is possible that the DoJ would not allow the release of documents until conclusion of their work.

Recall TWA 800 and the lengthy delay in the FBI providing the NTSB witness documents. Good write up here. http://www.twa800.com/ntsb/8-15-00/docket/Ex_4A.pdf
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Old 19th Oct 2019, 00:50
  #3157 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gums View Post
Salute!
@ Edmund.... et al


No need to go fishing. Just ask if there was ever a test of MCAS operation per the spec, and then a test when it was not supposed to activate ( high and low speed), and finally...... a test with the stick shaker going, unreliable speed and such warning lights and at 400 or 500 feet climbing out.

I have to minimize my legal comments/opinions, but feel comfortable critisizing the testing, certification and MCAS implementation of the MAX as a pilot and test engineer.

I do not wish Boeing to fail, but I have lost a lotta respect and trust. Anyone else here feel that way?

Gums sends...
Me too. I'm simply stunned.
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Old 19th Oct 2019, 01:04
  #3158 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by gums View Post
I do not wish Boeing to fail, but I have lost a lotta respect and trust. Anyone else here feel that way?
I'm pretty sure most contributors to these threads feel that way, Gums. It's way beyond sad and disturbing.
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Old 19th Oct 2019, 01:05
  #3159 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by b1lanc View Post
It is not an uncommon practice for law enforcement to withhold documentation if criminal investigations are on-going (and can we be sure that is not happening now?). It is possible that the DoJ would not allow the release of documents until conclusion of their work.

Recall TWA 800 and the lengthy delay in the FBI providing the NTSB witness documents. Good write up here. http://www.twa800.com/ntsb/8-15-00/docket/Ex_4A.pdf
That raises the question of why was Boeing allowed to release these documents now? Has the DoJ criminal investigation ended or did it dawn on someone that DoJ would not look good if this came out after the various inquiries? Seems rather murky at best.
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Old 19th Oct 2019, 01:13
  #3160 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by b1lanc View Post
It is not an uncommon practice for law enforcement to withhold documentation if criminal investigations are on-going (and can we be sure that is not happening now?). It is possible that the DoJ would not allow the release of documents until conclusion of their work.
Yes, we can be sure there's a criminal investigation. It's been public since March:

FBI Joins Criminal Investigation into Certification of 737 MAX

I pointed out in post #3145 that it is common for investigators to withhold information during active criminal investigations. WillowRun expressed skepticism that DOJ would do that with so much riding on the FAA/NTSB investigations. I agreed that it is nearly incomprehensible, but that's what seems to be happening.
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