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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

Old 16th Mar 2019, 21:40
  #1661 (permalink)  
 
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Was it a certification requirement that MCAS had to be installed on the B737 Max? One presumes that if MCAS had not been installed these accidents would not have occurred. You have to be careful that when you attempt to fix one problem (potential stall) that you don't generate other issues. Are we trying to make modern aircraft too "idiot proof"?
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Old 16th Mar 2019, 21:40
  #1662 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by reamer View Post
Pull up or turn.
This isn't difficult, if the trim wheel moves when it shouldn't, switch it off.
If the airspeed is unreliable, pitch up to 4 degrees and put the power around 75%.
The trim wheel is outside of the field of vision and the stick shaker is loud enough to cover the spinning trim wheel's noise. Add to that the DON'T SINK EGPWS warning and it's not that easy to catch.
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Old 16th Mar 2019, 21:41
  #1663 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CONSO View Post
And if HAL has trimmed you down and also added bucu force to pull up with both hands needed by both pilots - then what ?
HAL won't trim you down if he is switched off. Have you read the notice?
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Old 16th Mar 2019, 21:41
  #1664 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by reamer View Post
Pull up or turn.
This isn't difficult, if the trim wheel moves when it shouldn't, switch it off.
If the airspeed is unreliable, pitch up to 4 degrees and put the power around 75%.
Have you ever flown a 737?

The trim wheel moves by itself all the time. When is it supposed to and when isn't it?
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Old 16th Mar 2019, 21:43
  #1665 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by fireflybob View Post
Was it a certification requirement that MCAS had to be installed on the B737 Max? One presumes that if MCAS had not been installed these accidents would not have occurred. You have to be careful that when you attempt to fix one problem (potential stall) that you don't generate other issues. Are we trying to make modern aircraft too "idiot proof"?
It's been well explained in this thread but the short version is that the MAX demonstrated reducing stick forces at increasing alpha. It's a certification requirement that it doesn't do that and MCAS is supposed to remove that effect.
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Old 16th Mar 2019, 21:44
  #1666 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by derjodel View Post


- he hand flew which was against SOP for IMC

.
Is this a real thing at some carriers? It’s against SOP to hand fly in IMC conditions? Could this be part of the problem? We have a whole new generation of pilots that in essence aren’t really pilots? To me, this is downright scary. When I train new FO’s (IOE), they aren’t allowed to use automation until they have convinced me that they can hand fly the jet (737), preferably in IMC conditions. When we administer PC’s (a rarity these days), students still have to demonstrate the abitlity to hand fly a single engine ILS down to minimums.
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Old 16th Mar 2019, 21:47
  #1667 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Banana Joe View Post
The trim wheel is outside of the field of vision and the stick shaker is loud enough to cover the spinning trim wheel's noise. Add to that the DON'T SINK EGPWS warning and it's not that easy to catch.
I wouldn't agree about the field of vision but yes the sound would be drowned out by the stick shaker and egpws and yes it might not be easy to catch
but honestly, next year when you are flying your Max and it starts to act up, what's the first thing you're going to suspect?
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Old 16th Mar 2019, 21:51
  #1668 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks. Therefore and for argument sake, if these incidents were in fact “runaway stabilizers” we could expect the same tragic result. MCAS should have been interpreted as a “ RUNAWAY STAB. “ for which pilots are repeatedly drilled in the simulator.
MCAS: parameters for operation.
1. Autopilot OFF
2. Steep Bank/ Turn. ( what angle ?)
3. Flaps retracted.
4. High AOA
If the above 4 are correct, how many of those parameters were NOT met in Ethiopia. Nevertheless, prolonged trimming with the AP off instinctively requires stab switches OFF. I believe with the flaps NOT retracted, the Trim rate is increased as compared to flaps retracted. A runaway trim with flaps extended will very quickly overpower the pilot, the time frame allowed to identify and react appropriately, by selecting both switches OFF is extremely short if this occurs just after lift off. Once the pilot starts fighting the Yoke with both hands I suspect his mind will become focused on the physical deminishing the ability to keep thinking.
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Old 16th Mar 2019, 21:53
  #1669 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chesty Morgan View Post
Have you ever flown a 737?

The trim wheel moves by itself all the time. When is it supposed to and when isn't it?
It's supposed to when the autopilot is on and after takeoff when the autopilot is off and the flaps are not up.
When you are reading erratic indications on your instruments and it is consistantly trimming down, switch it off, you might save some lives.
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Old 16th Mar 2019, 21:55
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Thought Experiment

Originally Posted by reamer View Post
Every pilot of the 737 has known since the Lionair crash that the first thing to do in this situation is simply switch off the mcas by cutting off the stab trim switches.
Constant Stall Horn
Air noise as the airspeed increases
Adrenaline is pumping
Your blood is coursing through your veins... into your eardrums

CA directs FO “Stab Trim Cutout Switches to Cutout”
PM says “What! I can’t here you. Say again!”

That F**king Horn

CA “I SAID, STAB TRIM SWITCHES TO CUTOUT”
FO “STAB TRIM SWITCHES CONFIRM”
CA “YES, AFFIRMATIVE!”
FO “BOTH?”
CA “YES! DO IT!”

You struggle as you pull
You need both Hands
Airspeed is increasingly and so is the forces on the stabilizer

OMG the throttles are still at firewall
CA “Pull the Theottle back!”
FO “WHAT! I can’t hear you.”
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Old 16th Mar 2019, 21:55
  #1671 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by reamer View Post
It's supposed to when the autopilot is on and after takeoff when the autopilot is off and the flaps are not up.
When you are reading erratic indications on your instruments and it is cosistantly trimming down, switch it off, you might save some lives.
MCAS does not trim constantly and with everything else that might be going on...well it's already been pointed out above.

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Old 16th Mar 2019, 21:57
  #1672 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by reamer View Post
HAL won't trim you down if he is switched off. Have you read the notice?
Question- who knows whether or not the artificial feel system drops to zero or stays at full force when HALs minions are disconnected ?

Do you ? Please cite source ...

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Old 16th Mar 2019, 21:59
  #1673 (permalink)  
 
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The F/O should know what to do too?
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Old 16th Mar 2019, 22:04
  #1674 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CONSO View Post
Question- who knows whether or not the artificial feel system drops to zero or stays at full force when HALs minions are disconnected ?

Do you ? Please cite source ...
It doesn' t. My source is experience. When I cut them off it felt the same,
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Old 16th Mar 2019, 22:07
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Originally Posted by Chesty Morgan View Post
MCAS does not trim constantly and with everything else that might be going on...well it's already been pointed out above.
Okay, maybe not constantly, but often enough to make the plane uncontrollable.
Is your point that the pilots are blameless if they didn't cut off the trim switches?
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Old 16th Mar 2019, 22:07
  #1676 (permalink)  
 
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Thought Experiment

Originally Posted by Cloud Cutter View Post
No, the mindset of jumping to a conclusion that disparages a deceased flight crew who aren't here to defend themselves, without seeking to understand the full picture. We clearly disagree, your points noted with thanks, back to topic!
Its always the same.... Pilots eat their dead
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Old 16th Mar 2019, 22:09
  #1677 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by reamer View Post
Okay, maybe not constantly, but often enough to make the plane uncontrollable.
Is your point that the pilots are blameless if they didn't cut off the trim switches?
No, my point was that the trim wheel moves by itself all the time. It's not unexpected, then throw in up to 9 different cautions/indications and it's easy to disregard.
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Old 16th Mar 2019, 22:16
  #1678 (permalink)  
 
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Next time I'm SLF . . .

. . . I wanna fly with reamer, not one of those ordinary pilots who are affected by work overload, startle factor, baffling PFD readings and alarming acft behavior, at high speed and low altitude. I mean, who wouldn't want to?
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Old 16th Mar 2019, 22:24
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Originally Posted by OldnGrounded View Post
. . . I wanna fly with reamer, not one of those ordinary pilots who are affected by work overload, startle factor, baffling PFD readings and alarming acft behavior, at high speed and low altitude. I mean, who wouldn't want to?
Simply writing a few words saying do it this way does not make anyone a better or worse pilot than anyone else.

Trying to understand every implication, cause and problem of a particular accident does make you better. As does trying to see this from the point of view of those dead pilots.
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Old 16th Mar 2019, 22:27
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Originally Posted by Chesty Morgan View Post
Simply writing a few words saying do it this way does not make anyone a better or worse pilot than anyone else.

Trying to understand every implication, cause and problem of a particular accident does make you better. As does trying to see this from the point of view of those dead pilots.
irony alert! Don't take what he wrote literally.
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