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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

Old 17th Mar 2019, 02:20
  #1681 (permalink)  
 
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The more I read about it, the more MCAS sounds like something implemented by summer interns over a few weekends.
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 03:59
  #1682 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by OldnGrounded
. . . I wanna fly with reamer, not one of those ordinary pilots who are affected by work overload, startle factor, baffling PFD readings and alarming acft behavior, at high speed and low altitude. I mean, who wouldn't want to?
Please put /i [for irony...] or /s [for sarcasm...] at the end of your post(s).

Some people, in the heat of the moment, might miss the nuances...

Otherwise..., carry on...!
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 04:04
  #1683 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by brak
The more I read about it, the more MCAS sounds like something implemented by summer interns over a few weekends.
I would not point the bullet that low. I’d say bigger picture. “Folks we are not going to build a new type because there are commercial advantages in sticking with our 1967 design, like not updating to modern safety requirements through grandfather rights and no pesky pilot conversion costs. Put bigger engines on it, increase the TOW and seats. We’re in this to make money. Make it work. Do your best.”

That cost saving is looking very expensive right now. The backstory will be in MBA textbooks in the future.
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 04:09
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From BEA tweet:
Data from the CVR has been successfully downloaded by BEA and transfered to the Ethiopian investigation team / communication on their behalf / BEA did not listen to the audio files
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 04:19
  #1685 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PuraVidaTransport
AvHerald reporting the CVR has been read out and the data given to theEthiopian authorities without being listened to by the French. The work on the FDR is ongoing.
Correct, from the BEA's Twitter feed:



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Old 17th Mar 2019, 04:25
  #1686 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by compressor stall

I would not point the bullet that low. I’d say bigger picture. “Folks we are not going to build a new type because there are commercial advantages in sticking with our 1967 design, like not updating to modern safety requirements through grandfather rights and no pesky pilot conversion costs. Put bigger engines on it, increase the TOW and seats. We’re in this to make money. Make it work. Do your best.”

That cost saving is looking very expensive right now. The backstory will be in MBA textbooks in the future.
Agree completely with this summary. Add in

‘Lets get this through and share as little information as possible because we don't want to answer technical questions in case they shine a light on the certification short cut we've just about managed to pull off. Pilots won't notice the difference anyway.’

All about money.

Last edited by Chronic Snoozer; 17th Mar 2019 at 09:28.
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 04:28
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Originally Posted by Chronic Snoozer


Agree completely with this summary. Add in

‘Let’s get this through and share as little information as possible because we don’t want to answer technical questions in case they shine a light on the certification short cut we’ve just about managed to pull off. Pilots won’t notice the difference anyway.’

All about money.
Regulatory capture.
Unit cost reduction obsession.

As Gordon Gekko said "It's all about the bucks, the rest is just conversation"
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 04:33
  #1688 (permalink)  
 
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Pictures from the BEA Twitter feed.

The CVR:





And the FDR:


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Old 17th Mar 2019, 04:49
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Originally Posted by compressor stall

I would not point the bullet that low. I’d say bigger picture. “Folks we are not going to build a new type because there are commercial advantages in sticking with our 1967 design, like not updating to modern safety requirements through grandfather rights and no pesky pilot conversion costs. Put bigger engines on it, increase the TOW and seats. We’re in this to make money. Make it work. Do your best.”

That cost saving is looking very expensive right now. The backstory will be in MBA textbooks in the future.
I agree with your view, actually. I was only talking about the practical implementation. Clearly, this could not have happened in isolation. That "interns" are permitted/required to put together something so unsuitable for the purpose (and that such a requirement exists in the first place) is a systemic issue.
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 05:20
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I assume Boeing is already under an internal "document preservation" -- do not delete -- order. Discovery is coming. This is going to get ugly, Trying to dodge a preservation order, or even presumption, is going to make it worse.
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 05:48
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The question is how do you define the trigger(s) for applying the runaway stabiliser trim drill? STS, MCAS and the AP will (and do) adjust the trim without pilot input, so what exactly are you looking for? Also, this is not on a low workload flight deck level at 20,000’, this is shortly after takeoff in a critical flight phase where all margins are much smaller and spare cognitive bandwidth is much reduced. It needs to be simple logic, not a large branching flowchart.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that suppose the trim starts moving after takeoff: is that a runaway or is it normal operation? I can’t see a quick and easy way to figure it out ...
Very easy to figure it out. This happens by itself when it dawns on you that the one thing you are fighting with the aircraft over is the pitch trim. There may be a few annunciations here and there that you haven't seen before (and a stickshaker that started whilst still on the runway), but everything else about the aircraft seems to be working normally.

Again:

The nose attitude keeps wanting to go low. You keep applying trim to make it go up. You make a trim up input, but the aircraft then trims nose down. You are spending a lot of time and effort on trying to trim for nose-up, but something keeps trimming nose-down. Pretty easy to figure out.

Last edited by FGD135; 17th Mar 2019 at 08:31.
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 06:03
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Ham-fisted

What a ham-fisted fix MCAS is. Others here have referred to it as a "kludge", which would have to be a similarly appropriate description.

As designed, the MCAS can (and will) produce nose-down pitching moments far, far stronger than the small nose-up moments it was designed to counter.

As designed and certified!

Can anybody seriously describe such a fix as anything other than ham-fisted?
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 06:22
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Can anybody seriously describe such a fix as anything other than ham-fisted?
FUBAR ^3 for starters

BA will no doubt blame the janitor or low level manager.

The section of commercial involved ( design-aero- software- certification ) by whatever name must be held accountable - whomever pushed-signed- approved needs be fired up to and including the commercial president and probably the Boeing CEO.

bring in those who argued against it- get some northrup- Lockheed types in and have them fix it.
Anything less will doom the 737 series yet to be built

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Old 17th Mar 2019, 06:50
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Al Jazeera have an interesting documentary on the 787, something about broken dreams. It's on YouTube. Worth a watch if you have a hour to burn.
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 07:13
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Simply stated, Boeing rushed the ac into production to counter the NEO series. The extended landing gear to counter the long standing issue withe engine size, larger diameter engines that weigh far more, yet no new wing design.
Put them further forward and higher on the wing to fit, and when instability issues show up, a software patch. Forget to mention this in the FCOM or training.

It appears to get the ac to actually fly, you have to turn off the AP....

Broken dreams or broken promises?
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 08:58
  #1696 (permalink)  
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[QUOTE=CONSO;10421152]FUBAR ^3 for starters. BA will no doubt blame the janitor or low level manager./QUOTE]

Still have to work on reinforcing the flight crew response. The cues appear to have been lost in the noise, and even with being forewarned by the JT accident, the crew of ET has had a bad day.. The HF side of this will hopefully filter into a responsive training of crew. The question is what interrupted the crew getting to the stab cutout step.
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 09:07
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Extra crew training is just keeping a link in the chain.

A modern civil airliner should be designed not to rely on the flight crew having to adopt non standard (unique?) piloting techniques to counter a faulty bandaid put there to mask inherent aerodynamic flaws.
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 09:16
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Originally Posted by S speed
Al Jazeera have an interesting documentary on the 787, something about broken dreams. It's on YouTube. Worth a watch if you have a hour to burn.
Hour to burn, I see what you did there
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 09:35
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Originally Posted by yarpos
Hour to burn, I see what you did there
Haha, but seriously... Go search Al Jazeera 787 broken dreams. I'm not senior enough to post links yet, otherwise I would have done so.
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 09:40
  #1700 (permalink)  

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A modern civil airliner should be designed not to rely on the flight crew having to adopt non standard (unique?) piloting techniques to counter a faulty bandaid put there to mask inherent aerodynamic flaws.
They could always increase the height of the main undercarriage and bring the engines down to where common sense says they should be like the A210. It would have been better if they had developed a B757 light rather pursue the religion of 737 commonality with the 200 series.

Let's hope the regulators inject some common sense into the Boeing brain.
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