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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

Old 11th Mar 2019, 17:12
  #401 (permalink)  
 
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Old IT engineer here. Years writing code and more years supervising those who do.I read that after years of outsourcing, Boeing is now reversing that trend and doing more work onshore.
Do we know how much of the design, coding, and testing of the MCAS function was done in-house vs out-sourced? In my experience itís so hard to manage development when itís being done off shore, for a variety of reasons, but the same applies to testing. Iíd be interested to know of the QA plan, most obviously failure modes, and how it was executed and signed off.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 17:20
  #402 (permalink)  
 
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Red face

just had the painfull experience to listen to "aviation expert " on Canadian cbc tv. Where do they find these idiots. CNN is no better. Check out the female ex FAA director. She can't spell plane let alone give any info. These idiots probably get good bucks for this bs

rant over feel a little better.

Operators of the max are experiencing a nightmare as is boeing
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 17:25
  #403 (permalink)  
 
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I listened to that interview. Not much better than "altitude good, ground bad".
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 17:25
  #404 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mr Optimistic View Post
(pax)Was looking for the unreliable airspeed drill for the 737 and found this
737 airspeed unreliable QRH
Can I ask if the -8 differs ?
Its the same drill for the classic, NG and MAX.
10 degrees/80% with flap extended, 4 degrees/75% clean. At low altitudes you climb and at high levels descend slightly, but at any altitude the aircraft is under control whilst the PM reads the QRH, asks ATC for a block of altitudes to work in, and then gets the accurate thrust settings and pitch attitudes you need from the performance in flight section of the QRH.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 17:30
  #405 (permalink)  
 
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A couple of thoughts on the recent discussion....
Originally Posted by Vessbot
Yes. The scheme is, on any vertical surface (like the instrument panel, or a wall) up = on, same as any switch in the rest of the world.
Sorry, a good few places do it the other way around. And therein lies one problem with a global industry.
Originally Posted by JoeJosh999
Do we know how much of the design, coding, and testing of the MCAS function was done in-house vs out-sourced? In my experience itís so hard to manage development when itís being done off shore, for a variety of reasons, but the same applies to testing. Iíd be interested to know of the QA plan, most obviously failure modes, and how it was executed and signed off.
Perhaps more important is requirement capture before it goes off to the coders (wherever they may be). If assumptions are made at this point - be they about what pilots will know or be able to handle, or the training that they will get to ensure they have sufficient knowledge/competence of a particular system, to pull a couple of examples out of the air - it is vital that they are verified to be correct.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 17:38
  #406 (permalink)  
 
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The farmer on whose land it crashed claims it was trailing smoke and debris including clothes.

Per reuters. Can't post urls.

"After Ethiopia crash horror, some nations ground Boeing 737 MAX 8s" posted an hour ago.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 17:39
  #407 (permalink)  
 
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Requirement capture indeed

Is huge, and again out-source makes everything harder including communications w possible different native language speakers.
Itís that QA failure-mode test Iíd like to see. And does anyone w a piloting background get a look before approval? 10-sec on 5-sec off indefinitely unless disabled Iíd think would have gotten attention ? Iím naive perhaps.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 17:56
  #408 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by incompleteness View Post
The farmer on whose land it crashed claims it was trailing smoke and debris including clothes.

Per reuters. Can't post urls.

"After Ethiopia crash horror, some nations ground Boeing 737 MAX 8s" posted an hour ago.
The farmer on whose land it crashed claims it was trailing smoke and debris including clothes
Thatís the view after the high speed/high energy impact, when all light objects are ejected back in the air.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 17:57
  #409 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by slack View Post
just had the painfull experience to listen to "aviation expert " on Canadian cbc tv. Where do they find these idiots. CNN is no better. Check out the female ex FAA director. She can't spell plane let alone give any info. These idiots probably get good bucks for this bs
rant over feel a little better.
Operators of the max are experiencing a nightmare as is boeing
Yes, and it's not one easily "woke" from, either. At same time, though, as air transport as an enterprise becomes more and more embedded in the daily economic activities of countries all over, populations in general are also becoming more and more immune, or very skeptical at least, about purveyors of instant expertise.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 17:57
  #410 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by arketip View Post
There is quite a difference between a trim runaway and what seems to happen here.

How do you recognise a trim runaway?

Please please tell us that you're not a pilot.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 18:01
  #411 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by incompleteness View Post
The farmer on whose land it crashed claims it was trailing smoke and debris including clothes.

Per reuters. Can't post urls.
Some eyewitness reports in this Reuters article:
March 11, 2019 / 9:19 AM /
Ethiopian plane smoked and shuddered before deadly plunge

GARA-BOKKA, Ethiopia (Reuters) - The Ethiopian Airlines plane that crashed killing 157 people was making a strange rattling noise and trailed smoke and debris as it swerved above a field of panicked cows before hitting earth, according to witnesses.Flight 302 took off from the Ethiopian capital on Sunday morning bound for Nairobi with passengers from more than 30 countries. All on board the Boeing 737 MAX 8 died.

The pilot had requested permission to return, saying he was having problems - but it was too late.

Half a dozen witnesses interviewed by Reuters in the farmland where the plane came down reported smoke billowing out behind, while four of them also described a loud sound.

“It was a loud rattling sound. Like straining and shaking metal,” said Turn Buzuna, a 26-year-old housewife and farmer who lives about 300 meters (328 yards) from the crash site.

“Everyone says they have never heard that kind of sound from a plane and they are under a flight path,” she added.

Malka Galato, 47, a barley and wheat farmer whose field the plane crashed in, also described smoke and sparks from the back. “The plane was very close to the ground and it made a turn... Cows that were grazing in the fields ran in panic,” he said.

Tamirat Abera, 25, was walking past the field at the time. He said the plane turned sharply, trailing white smoke and items like clothes and papers, then crashed about 300 meters away.

“It tried to climb but it failed and went down nose first,” he said. “There was fire and white smoke which then turned black.”

“When it was hovering, fire was following its tail, then it tried to lift its nose,” said another witness, Gadisa Benti. “When it passed over our house, the nose pointed down and the tail raised up. It went straight to the ground with its nose, it then exploded.”



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Old 11th Mar 2019, 18:01
  #412 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cows getting bigger View Post
Some rough working assumptions (probably overly optimistic):

350 aircraft
In service for 2 years, each aircraft available 340 days/yr, 5 sectors/day.
Total number of departures: approx 1.2m giving a fatal accident rate of 1.67 per million flights.

In comparison using figures up to 2017:

Banderantie - 3.07. (Ouch!)
Concorde - 11.36 (indicative of very low numbers in service and utilisation)
F28 - 1.65
A310 - 1.34
B747 (early models) 1.02
B747 (-400 onwards) - 0.06
B737 (all models) - 0.28
A320 series - 0.11
Two years starting with one, now 350 gives 0.6m departures. That is 3.3 per million flights!
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 18:07
  #413 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by excrab View Post


Its the same drill for the classic, NG and MAX.
10 degrees/80% with flap extended, 4 degrees/75% clean. At low altitudes you climb and at high levels descend slightly, but at any altitude the aircraft is under control whilst the PM reads the QRH, asks ATC for a block of altitudes to work in, and then gets the accurate thrust settings and pitch attitudes you need from the performance in flight section of the QRH.
At low aiarspeed you descend and accelerate. At high airspeed you climb and decelerate.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 18:22
  #414 (permalink)  
 
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Ref: incompleteness posting #405
Article quotes eyewitnesses....”Half a dozen witnesses interviewed by Reuters in the farmland where the plane came down reported smoke billowing out behind, while four of them also described a loud sound. “


Source: reuters.com
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-e...-idUSKBN1QS1LJ
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 18:23
  #415 (permalink)  
 
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Royal Air Maroc has grounded its entire fleet of Max8's - One.

Rolling news crawler here:

https://www.newsnow.co.uk/h/Hot+Topics/Boeing+737+Max
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 18:27
  #416 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by arketip
There is quite a difference between a trim runaway and what seems to happen here.

How do you recognise a trim runaway?

Originally Posted by mangere1957 View Post
Please please tell us that you're not a pilot.
to be fair to Arketip (who probably flies something else) on several airplanes it is much harder to detect then on a B737. Not many aircraft have the 1950’s big and noisy trim wheel in the cockpit. Most just have a tiny green (and silent) indicator outside your scan.

No idea how it is on the 737 Max
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 18:29
  #417 (permalink)  
 
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if you believe noise/smoke/clothes falling out of plane i have a deal for you. bridge in new york for sale cheap. only used on sunday.
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 18:30
  #418 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capt Pit Bull View Post


At low aiarspeed you descend and accelerate. At high airspeed you climb and decelerate.
Read what excrab said;
10 degrees/80% with flap extended, 4 degrees/75% clean. At low altitudes you climb and at high levels descend slightly...
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 18:31
  #419 (permalink)  
 
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Iíd be interested to know of the QA plan, most obviously failure modes, and how it was executed and signed off.
Unfortunately- Boeing will most likely keep it proprietary such that perhaps- maybe- it will be an exhibit in one or more of the coming- existing lawsuits- even then it may well be supplied under a protective order and available in context only to the jury IF pressed. Otherwise a summary of standard procedure of xyz group checked by abc group and signed off by ccc senior manager. Ditto for FAA and other agencies. And having been determined to meet section - 75635-cvr-67.1834 of code fubar321.45 as amended was within the rules ..

The noise you hear is A** covers slamming closed...
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Old 11th Mar 2019, 18:31
  #420 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Vessbot View Post
Yes. The scheme is, on any vertical surface (like the instrument panel, or a wall) up = on, same as any switch in the rest of the world. On any horizontal surface (center pedestal, or overhead) forward = on. For the center pedestal, the forward = on scheme elegantly matches what you're used to (toward the top of your eyeball = on). But I've always thought that that's a stupid application on the overhead, which gives the feeling of upside down switches since it reverses the "toward the top/bottom of your eyeball" relationship, and instead it should just be treated like a wall.

And the 737 seems to have very few switches in places that aren't the overhead, so the overhead upside-down scheme prevails. But the stab cut out switches are on a place where the normal (up = on) scheme is in place.
In ground school, I was taught to think that toward the windscreen was on. That provides an alternative to thinking up/down and (at least for me) makes it feel consistent for both the panel and overhead switches. I suppose this might not feel natural to all.
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