Ethiopian airliner down in Africa
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Originally Posted by extreme P
MCAS activates automatically when all of the following conditions are met:
High angle of attack
Autopilot disengaged
Flaps are up
High angle of attack Autopilot disengaged Flaps are up
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Originally Posted by Seat4A
"American Airlines Flight Attendants Union Telling Crew They Don’t Have to Work the 737 MAX"
Posted on a couple of media sites, including memo from union president. Thanks to those who can post the links.
Posted on a couple of media sites, including memo from union president. Thanks to those who can post the links.
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Originally Posted by Vessbot
Really? I'll admit to being wrong, but can you give some examples? I've done a small bit of traveling around Western and Eastern Europe (France, England, Bulgaria), and I don't remember anything about the light switches, and I feel like it would stick out in my memory as a shocking adjustment had they been down=on.
It's a bit of a silly thing to argue about though. The type that I fly has the basic logic that everything pointing forward means normal ops. "Down" is then usually reserved for AUTO instead of ON, but same difference. I thought the larger issue with switches regarding 737 MAX is that they (the cut-off switches) function in the opposite way from the 737 NG. Not really any point dragging in regular light switches if we are talking about a manufacturers cockpit philosophy.
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According to the African forum, the copilot was a MPL pilot with 200 hrs.
So, a very low hour pilot with even less time in an actual cockpit. Some of these guys start flying commercial jet aircraft with 40-50 actual flight hours.
So, a very low hour pilot with even less time in an actual cockpit. Some of these guys start flying commercial jet aircraft with 40-50 actual flight hours.
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Does anyone know whether ADD has any issues with insects clogging uncovered pitot tubes as some Australian airports have? The ET crew reported "erratic airspeed" as well as control issues. Or maybe pitot covers were not removed prior to flight?
Last edited by Lake1952; 12th Mar 2019 at 00:56.
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Lonewolf50, re
As ever, 
, tx.
I wonder if anyone listening to the ATC tapes of ET302's transmissions hears anything like the sound of a stickshaker?
"As ever, some training and crew training is the proper supplement to such a modification. "
, tx.I wonder if anyone listening to the ATC tapes of ET302's transmissions hears anything like the sound of a stickshaker?
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Switches ON up or down?
Originally Posted by Vessbot
Really? I'll admit to being wrong, but can you give some examples? I've done a small bit of traveling around Western and Eastern Europe (France, England, Bulgaria), and I don't remember anything about the light switches, and I feel like it would stick out in my memory as a shocking adjustment had they been down=on.
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Originally Posted by FullWings
What I find interesting, is whenever MCAS is being discussed (re the Lion Air crash and possibly this one as more data comes to light), there are a lot of posts saying that if they’d just done the trim runaway checklist, everything would have been OK. Yes, probably. But what would have led them to that checklist? If you took off in a 737 MAX on a flight where nothing went wrong and you didn’t crash (rare, I know 
) and manually flew the cleanup, would you get a bit of trim from MCAS as the last of the flap went in, making it something “normal” and “expected"?
If you had read all the manuals, then got a stall warning shortly after clean, you’d expect the MCAS to do a bit of trimming, yes? So “normal” behaviour? It’s also intermittent and you can trim back and forth yourself, so hardly a “runaway” in the traditional sense; in fact not in the sense of the QRH either, which describes a runaway stab as “continuous”.
So, unless you are prepared to do the runaway stabiliser drill every time you see the trim wheel moving and it wasn’t initiated by you (which would lead to lots of very short flights), how do you tell in a limited timeframe whether MCAS is trying to save your life or trying to kill you...?
) and manually flew the cleanup, would you get a bit of trim from MCAS as the last of the flap went in, making it something “normal” and “expected"?If you had read all the manuals, then got a stall warning shortly after clean, you’d expect the MCAS to do a bit of trimming, yes? So “normal” behaviour? It’s also intermittent and you can trim back and forth yourself, so hardly a “runaway” in the traditional sense; in fact not in the sense of the QRH either, which describes a runaway stab as “continuous”.
So, unless you are prepared to do the runaway stabiliser drill every time you see the trim wheel moving and it wasn’t initiated by you (which would lead to lots of very short flights), how do you tell in a limited timeframe whether MCAS is trying to save your life or trying to kill you...?
MCAS will add 2.5 deg AND trim over a 10 second time frame and stop, unless the pilots resets by manual trim, that will stop the MCAS input for 5 sec and if the high AOA (real or false) is still present add another 10 sec 2.5 deg input (and so on). Not on the 737 myself, but often on the jumpseat, I don't think STS will ever give you a 10 sec trim input, and STS trim after T/O would normally be ANU, as it will try to keep the speed constant while the pilot wants to accelerate. STS and MCAS are AFAIK the only systems able to run the trim on the 737. I also don't think a 737 pilot who is hand flying and trying to accelerate would miss an un-commanded (by him) 10 sec AND trim input. If in doubt just keep blipping the trim every few seconds, and MCAS will do nothing, no need to immediately disconnect the trim (but obviously follow the QRH with regard to trim issues).
Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem
According to the African forum, the copilot was a MPL pilot with 200 hrs.
So, a very low hour pilot with even less time in an actual cockpit. Some of these guys start flying commercial jet aircraft with 40-50 actual flight hours.
So, a very low hour pilot with even less time in an actual cockpit. Some of these guys start flying commercial jet aircraft with 40-50 actual flight hours.
PPatRoN
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Originally Posted by Vessbot
Really? I'll admit to being wrong, but can you give some examples? I've done a small bit of traveling around Western and Eastern Europe (France, England, Bulgaria), and I don't remember anything about the light switches, and I feel like it would stick out in my memory as a shocking adjustment had they been down=on.
UK 'save energy' sticker for placing near a light switch.
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Originally Posted by Vessbot
Really? I'll admit to being wrong, but can you give some examples? I've done a small bit of traveling around Western and Eastern Europe (France, England, Bulgaria), and I don't remember anything about the light switches, and I feel like it would stick out in my memory as a shocking adjustment had they been down=on.
Argument was always UP on was safer as gravity could not turn on.
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Originally Posted by Sailvi767
You have had three recent Airbus crashes where they impacted the water, two in similar circumstances. You had one A340 climb uncommanded over Greenland and just miss a A330 which would have been one of the worst accidents in history. There have been uncommanded nose down pitching moments that resulted in a Rube Goldberg procedure of trying to shutdown two ADR’s on the overhead panel but leaving a third running.
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Why elaborate, this is about the MAX, not a comparison to Airbus ac.
I am curious if any of the other airlines have reported the MCAS incidents, but were able to correct?
I am curious if any of the other airlines have reported the MCAS incidents, but were able to correct?
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“The only reason to put this software system in the plane is because of the bigger engines (that had to be placed in a different area of the wings), which can cause the aircraft to stall.
“The new MAX aircraft have been stretched to have over 200 seats. This means the engines go further back causing propensity to stall.
“The training manuals were modified after the Lion Air incident, because at the time the only time MCAS was mentioned was in the definition section. Nowhere else in the original manual were there details on what the MCAS does, bad indications and how to turn it off were included.
“The new manual procedures encompass how to handle the system, Ethiopian Airlines is a tidy airline, so I’d be surprised if they hadn’t circulated it to their pilots.”
Really?? I thought the issue was that the engines were relatively speaking, further forward and higher which leads to the stall? Is this just another case of mistaken EXPERT commentary?
“The new MAX aircraft have been stretched to have over 200 seats. This means the engines go further back causing propensity to stall.
“The training manuals were modified after the Lion Air incident, because at the time the only time MCAS was mentioned was in the definition section. Nowhere else in the original manual were there details on what the MCAS does, bad indications and how to turn it off were included.
“The new manual procedures encompass how to handle the system, Ethiopian Airlines is a tidy airline, so I’d be surprised if they hadn’t circulated it to their pilots.”
Really?? I thought the issue was that the engines were relatively speaking, further forward and higher which leads to the stall? Is this just another case of mistaken EXPERT commentary?
N4790P
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Originally Posted by Sailvi767
Keep in mind that sims have very little fidelity in reproducing a actual fully stalled condition.
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Given the widely reported operating perameters of MCAS, and in the interest of self preservation, is there really any MAX crew out there not having a pre departure brief along the following lines:
If the the trim stab starts trying to fly us in to the ground, we will:
Level off
Reduce speed
Pop out flap 1
And then try to troubleshoot the problem
If the the trim stab starts trying to fly us in to the ground, we will:
Level off
Reduce speed
Pop out flap 1
And then try to troubleshoot the problem
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Originally Posted by czarnajama
The standard ON position in my experience in England, Poland and New Zealand is DOWN, whereas in Canada and the US it is UP (based on many years of living in each of these countries). International hotel chains may do it differently, but I don't remember.
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Originally Posted by rmac2
Given the widely reported operating perameters of MCAS, and in the interest of self preservation, is there really any MAX crew out there not having a pre departure brief along the following lines:
If the the trim stab starts trying to fly us in to the ground, we will:
Level off
Reduce speed
Pop out flap 1
And then try to troubleshoot the problem
If the the trim stab starts trying to fly us in to the ground, we will:
Level off
Reduce speed
Pop out flap 1
And then try to troubleshoot the problem
