Atlas Air 767 down/Texas

[B2N2]

Originally Posted by EXDAC

My speculation, and it is only speculation, is that turbulence was encountered while a seat swap was in progress and one of those involved in the swap put out a hand to steady themselves and pushed the throttles full forward. Speculation is based on lots of time in flight test where many seats swaps were observed. Who wouldn't have wanted to give the newbie a bit of stick time?

Of course that speculation is meaningless if all crew were found strapped in their appropriate seats.

You’ve posted previously you were involved in something related to the MD-80.
No idea what that was but you don’t just do “seat swaps” for a jolly and certainly not at that stage of the flight.
Seat swaps with relief crew occur at cruise and the “landing” crew is seated 1-1.5 hrs out.
350-500 miles.

[tdracer]

Originally Posted by Australopithecus

Is the pitot or “probe” heat on a 767 auto or manually selected? Does faulty probe heat trigger a caution? Just wondering if a blocked pitot on descent yielded an alarmingly low airspeed indication prompting an overreaction with thrust and attitude?

Probe heat is automatic on the 767 (all heated probes). Any probe heat failure generates an EICAS message.

[Murexway]

Originally Posted by B2N2

You’ve posted previously you were involved in something related to the MD-80.
No idea what that was but you don’t just do “seat swaps” for a jolly and certainly not at that stage of the flight.
Seat swaps with relief crew occur at cruise and the “landing” crew is seated 1-1.5 hrs out.
350-500 miles.

Not to answer for EXDAC, but I flew Capt on the Mad Dog for 12 years and swapped legs if there was another qualified Capt on the crew list (rare), but never swapped seats. I did go to the lav a few times but only in cruise and nobody sat in my seat. If the sequence was over 8 hrs flying or 14 hrs duty (very rare) we had a relief crew, but the seat exchange was done at the gate.

[B2N2]

Exactly so this whole seat swap lost your balance or the jumpseater wanted to take a picture and fell onto the controls is just utter jibberish.
Frankely is astounding people even post this and are serious.

[bsieker]

Originally Posted by Murexway

Well, the first part of the name is "Professional Pilots" . Wish there was a way to enforce that....

This has been done to death and back. With that you'd throw away all the valuable contributions of engineers, ATC personnel, psychologists, sociologists, human-machine interface specialists, safety practitioners, and even *gasp* regulators and managers, etc., and end up a pilots-only echo chamber. I guess you can have that if you want, but that is not what this place is intended to be.

Bernd
(aerospace safety engineer, accident analyst, private pilot)

[Meester proach]

Originally Posted by bsieker

This has been done to death and back. With that you'd throw away all the valuable contributions of engineers, ATC personnel, psychologists, sociologists, human-machine interface specialists, safety practitioners, and even *gasp* regulators and managers, etc., and end up a pilots-only echo chamber. I guess you can have that if you want, but that is not what this place is intended to be.

Bernd
(aerospace safety engineer, accident analyst, private pilot)

OK, make it the “ professional people in aviation “ forum. I’m sure no one wants to discourage our colleagues in all the areas, but maybe try and stifle the spotters, nutters and those who wear tin foil hats

[cats_five]

Originally Posted by Meester proach

OK, make it the “ professional people in aviation “ forum. I’m sure no one wants to discourage our colleagues in all the areas, but maybe try and stifle the spotters, nutters and those who wear tin foil hats

There are aviation professionals who are nutters, and who wear tin foil hats. And there are non-aviation professionals who have a great deal to contribute.

[The Ancient Geek]

Do you want to exclude those of us with no medical due to silver hair ?

[FCeng84]

Originally Posted by The Ancient Geek

Do you want to exclude those of us with no medical due to silver hair ?

No way!!! Too many of us a bit wetter behind the ears are so busy staring at the single tree we have been assigned to manage that we can miss the shape of the forest. All of us certainly need the wisdom of those of you who have been around long enough to see how we got where we are to have some sense of how to move forward. It's hard to know how to get out of the woods if you were born in the thick of it and grew up not knowing any better. As one a little past half way between newbie and certified grey beard I implore all of you who have been around the block a few times to keep sharing your insights with the rest of us. Lord knows we need every bit of help we can collect!

As gums might say, FCeng defers ...

[aterpster]

Originally Posted by Murexway

Not to answer for EXDAC, but I flew Capt on the Mad Dog for 12 years and swapped legs if there was another qualified Capt on the crew list (rare), but never swapped seats. I did go to the lav a few times but only in cruise and nobody sat in my seat. If the sequence was over 8 hrs flying or 14 hrs duty (very rare) we had a relief crew, but the seat exchange was done at the gate.

Seats have to be swapped in cruise for a long flight that requires a relief pilot.

[stilton]

Originally Posted by aterpster

Seats have to be swapped in cruise for a long flight that requires a relief pilot.

After four years flying the MD80 I can assure
you it doesn’t have the legs that would require an inflight seat swap for a relief pilot

[Skyborne Flyer]

Apparently Wall Street and Business Insider reporting NTSB stating pilot error as the cause of the crash. In the final minutes, pilots increase thrust passing through wx, overreact to nose up pitch due to thrust increase, end up 49deg nose down. NTSB saying reaction very strange for experienced aviators, as is obvious. Very strange

[gums]

Salute!

Couldn't resist.....
by ater'pester"

Seats have to be swapped in cruise for a long flight that requires a relief pilot.

Well, I still consider myself a "professional". And had a little bit of time as a government-paid triggerman that allowed me to gain a degree of experience with aerodynamics and avionics and.... All in planes that I could not stand up in or walk to the loo ( deference to the Poms) or grab a fresh cup of coffee. So for a good test try sitting in a small chair with oxygen mask on and maybe a relief tube to help, or a box lunch so the crumbs clogged up your valve in the mask, for 13 or 14 hours.

Just my "whine of the day" at the pester!

Gums remembers....

Jez thot we needed a bit of light commentary and this thing is very sad.

[jimtx]

Originally Posted by stilton

After four years flying the MD80 I can assure
you it doesn’t have the legs that would require an inflight seat swap for a relief pilot

It is very strange. The only thing that comes to mind is a DC-8 crash in the 80s or 90s where fatigue might have made the pilots “punch drunk”. So we would have to know what the pilots’ duty day was like. If a tag leg after an all nighter with delays in between flights they would be zombies. NTSB will let you know someday. Nobody on atlas dare chime in if that’s the case.

[runner1021]

Originally Posted by jimtx

It is very strange. The only thing that comes to mind is a DC-8 crash in the 80s or 90s where fatigue might have made the pilots “punch drunk”. So we would have to know what the pilots’ duty day was like. If a tag leg after an all nighter with delays in between flights they would be zombies. NTSB will let you know someday. Nobody on atlas dare chime in if that’s the case.

Looks like the aircraft operated KONT/KMIA/KIAH. Assuming this crew flew it out of KONT they'd be looking at about a 10 hour duty day.

[Weapons Grade]

So who exactly were the crew complement?

Originally Posted by stilton

After four years flying the MD80 I can assure
you it doesn’t have the legs that would require an inflight seat swap for a relief pilot

I am a little confused: I thought the airplane was a B767, not a MD80, in which case you are correct - the MD80 doesn't have the legs for a relief pilot. BUT...the crashed airplane was a B767, cest na pas?
As for the chatter about changing crew positions:
a. How many crew were assigned to the flight, and how many were type-rated and current on type (I may have missed that somewhere in the posts)?
b. Was the jump-seater (assumption) rated and current on type with the operator?
I opine that it would be a very "courageous" captain to permit a non-type rated company pilot to occupy either CM1 or CM2 seat at any stage of the flight.
I wait to be enlightened.

[jimtx]

Originally Posted by runner1021

Looks like the aircraft operated KONT/KMIA/KIAH. Assuming this crew flew it out of KONT they'd be looking at about a 10 hour duty day.

Thats what the aircraft did but we don’t know what the crew did. All nighter from somewhere,sit till they get their 11am departure ready for you, I would be a zombie. I only had to experience zombie land once to know that you are far from 100% and it differs with crews. But all guesswork. NTSB will have the story.

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by Skyborne Flyer

Apparently Wall Street and Business Insider reporting NTSB stating pilot error as the cause of the crash.

You must be reading a different article.

From the one that you linked to:

"Robert Sumwalt, the NTSB's chairman, predicted it would take more than a year of work to determine the cause of the crash"

Which do you think is more likely to be something that the NTSB would actually say ?

[valvanuz]

Originally Posted by DaveReidUK

You must be reading a different article.

From the one that you linked to:



Which do you think is more likely to be something that the NTSB would actually say ?

More than a year for the final report, probably. But by the preliminary report which should be out in a couple of weeks, there will be some pretty strong hints.

[aterpster]

Originally Posted by valvanuz

More than a year for the final report, probably. But by the preliminary report which should be out in a couple of weeks, there will be some pretty strong hints.

Because it's an air carrier accident, sometime prior to the final report the NTSB will open a docket. The docket will have a wealth of factual reports including the CVR transcript.