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Atlas Air 767 down/Texas

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Atlas Air 767 down/Texas

Old 21st Mar 2019, 12:55
  #661 (permalink)  
 
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TOGA not even armed until flaps are not up.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 13:41
  #662 (permalink)  
 
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Nor does GA mode give you full power...
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 15:43
  #663 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flyingchanges
TOGA not even armed until flaps are not up.
But you can envision continuous contact with the switches with the arm while moving the flap handle to 1. Would the thrust levers continue to advance because the rate of climb was not being acheived?
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 16:34
  #664 (permalink)  
 
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And the FO never learned to use the attitude indicator? With -49° pitch everything will be brown - easy to see.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 16:48
  #665 (permalink)  
 
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Would you have to keep yourself pressing TOGA though, to get the power, as it was first pressed before “ flaps not down “.

would have to be the ultimate startle factor to go from a 2000 FPM climb to 49 degrees nose down
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 17:22
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Originally Posted by ABusDrivr
Got this info from my airlines unofficial forum. Unofficial of course .

The initial bobble is from turbulence at 6200’. When the FO called for flaps 1, the captain accidentally hit the toga button. Toga didn’t engage until after flaps were set to 1, which then brought engine power to full, and started the initial pitch of 10 degrees nose up. The FO was startled, and shoved the nose forward... The CVR is startling, and baffling. The CA was pulling so hard against the FO that he sheared the pins on the stick and at that point had no control. They were IMC at the time. When they broke out into VMC, the FO said oh schit and started to pull. That was the round out you see. I won’t get into anything more until everything comes out. The records, the CVR, and what happened in the flight deck is truly shocking. They hit a negative 4 G dive initialy on the FOs push. All you hear is stuff hitting the ceiling and at one point a loud thud. They think the thud may have been the JS hitting the ceiling and maybe not wearing the shoulder harness. Like I said, I won’t get into anything more about the background of how it all happened. This is the accident in a nutshell. The facts that will come out are shocking.
Just got the same sequence of events from an old classmate. Only thing additional was that the FO apparently entered the weather and turbulence with the speed brakes fully deployed. I also got the extra stuff about the FO.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 17:31
  #667 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Murexway
Just got the same sequence of events from an old classmate. Only thing additional was that the FO apparently entered the weather and turbulence with the speed brakes fully deployed. I also got the extra stuff about the FO.
So this might be relevant: https://www.businessinsider.com/amaz...exWYzCom2nO24E
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 17:33
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Remember in the first page of this thread when someone filtered the ATC audio (background noise from foreground) and the last transmission was Ok. Well that pull you hear at the end is supposedly the jumpseater telling the crew to pull up.

We'll be able to confirm once the transcripts come out, but I've heard the same narrative as above.

Sounds like the PF got disoriented by the pitch up from TOGA being engaged, the buffeting from speedbrakes made him think they were stalling so he pushes it over (way more aggressively than you'd expect) freezes and then when they break out he comes to but by then recovery is impossible.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 17:48
  #669 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jimtx
At least according to TT, I would not classify the crew as inexperienced in this case. However, if what was posted here as information off the CVR is true, it would indicate abysmal instrument flying skills of the FO, as well as possibly bad CRM if the CA cannot do better than ripping the stick out in an attempt to counteract an apparently disoriented FO who is pushing the nose down, and a FO who does not hand over the controls when in doubt about his abilities. Yes, events may have unfolded pretty fast, but still that‘s what crews are trained for.

Fatigue and being overworked might very well turn out to be key factors in letting the crew‘s performance drop below acceptable standards at the time of the accident.







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Old 21st Mar 2019, 17:54
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Originally Posted by jimtx
Yes, but even at the major pax carriers life isn't perfect. Back of the clock flying and contract violations on the part of crew schedulers (who are being pushed) are part of life. But I'm sure it's much worse at the freight outfits below FEDEX and UPS.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 18:01
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Only additional stuff I saw was that the airplane crashed with the autothrottles and A/P engaged and the elevators were split due to cross inputs on the control columns. It was only 18 seconds from 6,300 to the ground.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 18:29
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Originally Posted by AviatorDave


Even a well-trained and able crew will eventually screw up when fatigue and being overworked comes into play.
I agree completely. Even the best person can screw up on a bad day, even more so when tired.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 18:50
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Originally Posted by AviatorDave


Even a well-trained and able crew will eventually screw up when fatigue and being overworked comes into play.
The flight was during the day. If the crew had been up all night then yes fatigue may/will have come into it. If not then I hope it wasn't self inflicted e.g. crew commuting
Only the final report will confirm. May they RIP
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 18:51
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Originally Posted by ABusDrivr
Got this info from my airlines unofficial forum. Unofficial of course .

The initial bobble is from turbulence at 6200’. When the FO called for flaps 1, the captain accidentally hit the toga button. Toga didn’t engage until after flaps were set to 1, which then brought engine power to full, and started the initial pitch of 10 degrees nose up. The FO was startled, and shoved the nose forward... The CVR is startling, and baffling. The CA was pulling so hard against the FO that he sheared the pins on the stick and at that point had no control. They were IMC at the time. When they broke out into VMC, the FO said oh schit and started to pull. That was the round out you see. I won’t get into anything more until everything comes out. The records, the CVR, and what happened in the flight deck is truly shocking. They hit a negative 4 G dive initialy on the FOs push. All you hear is stuff hitting the ceiling and at one point a loud thud. They think the thud may have been the JS hitting the ceiling and maybe not wearing the shoulder harness. Like I said, I won’t get into anything more about the background of how it all happened. This is the accident in a nutshell. The facts that will come out are shocking.
Wow. Just ... wow.

I understand the pitch up illusion (and in this case, reality, at least to 10 degrees) you get when going TOGA in the clouds.

But how can you possibly pitch down to 49 degrees in response??

I don't care if you were trained only on Cessna's before this flight ... you don't even do this in a Cessna!

If this is at all true, and if the FO didn't do that intentionally, it boggles the mind.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 18:56
  #675 (permalink)  
 
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When the FO called for flaps 1, the captain accidentally hit the toga button. Toga didn’t engage until after flaps were set to 1, which then brought engine power to full, and started the initial pitch of 10 degrees nose up.
I suspect the stated sequence is a bit off - i.e. the captain selected flaps 1, then bumped TOGA. TOGA is armed as soon as 'flaps not stowed' is true which would happen almost immediately after flaps 1 selected.
Sounds like spacial disorientation strikes again .
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 19:26
  #676 (permalink)  
 
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Unhappy

Somatogravic Illusion

I’ve experienced it once at night and I can tell you it is almost totally overwhelming. I can easily imagine the FO (due to the large acceleration) believing he was pitching very high nose up and ‘instinctively’ pushing forward. That increases acceleration which makes the illusion even worse, so you want to push forward even more. By this stage he would have been in cognitive overload and totally unresponsive to the CA’s desperate attempts at recovery.

Last edited by Bleve; 21st Mar 2019 at 19:39.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 19:32
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Read the link posted by jimtx.
Crews seem to be pushed way over the limits, so I don‘t think that anything can be ruled out by the fact that the accident happened during daytime.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 20:17
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Originally Posted by tdracer
I suspect the stated sequence is a bit off - i.e. the captain selected flaps 1, then bumped TOGA. TOGA is armed as soon as 'flaps not stowed' is true which would happen almost immediately after flaps 1 selected.
Sounds like spacial disorientation strikes again .
Would you need to bump just one TOGA sw, or both?
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 21:52
  #679 (permalink)  

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IIRC, on all aircraft I've flown that had TOGA switches, the buttons are inset, to prevent accidental activation. That means a digit has to be inserted into the cup to select TOGA, not just bumping against the switch.
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Old 21st Mar 2019, 21:56
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Originally Posted by COflyer


Would you need to bump just one TOGA sw, or both?
Just one

Originally Posted by Herod
IIRC, on all aircraft I've flown that had TOGA switches, the buttons are inset, to prevent accidental activation. That means a digit has to be inserted into the cup to select TOGA, not just bumping against the switch.
It's a switch on the back of the thrust lever that sticks out

https://i0.wp.com/aerosavvy.com/wp-c...1200.jpg?ssl=1
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