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JAL pilot over the limit in London

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JAL pilot over the limit in London

Old 3rd Nov 2018, 13:16
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hitchens97 View Post
So from you older pilots what do you do if you suspect your colleague has drunk alcohol?

Do you say "call in sick or I turn you in"?
Do you just turn them in?
Ignore?

What I find shocking is that it was the driver who reported it and not one of his colleagues. Is there some Omerta here that us SLF need to be worried about?
Just saying, “call in sick” ought to be enough.
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 18:43
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FL11967 View Post
Has it been confirmed he is local and not expat?
The BBC article linked in Post #3 certainly thinks so...

Originally Posted by https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46062122
A Japanese pilot who was arrested at Heathrow Airport for being drunk has admitted being more than nine times the legal alcohol limit.

Katsutoshi Jitsukawa, 42, who works for Japan Airlines, was arrested on 28 October after failing a breath test.
​​​​​
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Old 4th Nov 2018, 02:25
  #23 (permalink)  
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and not one of his colleagues.
I wouldn't expect a colleague to 'turn him in' unless the pilot under suspicion, when challenged by his colleague, refused to go sick.
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Old 4th Nov 2018, 06:28
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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You certainly cant ignore your suspicion that a colleague is over the limit, otherwise you yourself can be charged with a crime:

A person charged with aiding and abetting or accessory is usually not present when the crime itself is committed, but he or she has knowledge of the crime before or after the fact, and may assist in its commission through advice, actions, or financial support.
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Old 4th Nov 2018, 06:42
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hitchens97 View Post
So from you older pilots what do you do if you suspect your colleague has drunk alcohol?

Do you say "call in sick or I turn you in"?
Do you just turn them in?
Ignore?

What I find shocking is that it was the driver who reported it and not one of his colleagues. Is there some Omerta here that us SLF need to be worried about?

Have him call in sick, and report to the alcohol and drugs program incorporated by our company so the colleague can receive proper support and keep his job.

If he refuses to call in sick, turn him in. No way he is flying.
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Old 4th Nov 2018, 07:08
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Suspicion is not knowledge. That’s why the authorities have breathalysers. And, you know, the entire system of justice.
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Old 4th Nov 2018, 07:26
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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This is a very difficult subject, in flight recently I was told that the cabin crew suspected one of their number had been drinking but was acting normally, I had not noticed anything unusual about this person when we checked in for the flight and getting the information just as we are on the final approach resulted in me deciding to go ahead and land ASAP.

I asked for the person to come to the cockpit after the Pax has left the aircraft and their breath did smell suspicious, I put this matter in the hands of the company management.

Last edited by A and C; 4th Nov 2018 at 13:57.
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Old 4th Nov 2018, 08:35
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hitchens97 View Post
So from you older pilots what do you do if you suspect your colleague has drunk alcohol?

Do you say "call in sick or I turn you in"?
Do you just turn them in?
Ignore?

What I find shocking is that it was the driver who reported it and not one of his colleagues. Is there some Omerta here that us SLF need to be worried about?
I wasn't there, so can't really comment directly on the incident at hand, but I can say that it can be pretty difficult to detect when a full-time career alcoholic is intoxicated. Chronic continual alcohol consumption changes the way it affects you physiologically. I can think of 2 individuals with whom I worked fairly closely, (not as flight crew) whom I later came to know were pretty much drunk, all the time. Yet they never appeared outwardly to be drunk in the sense of slurring words or staggering or other typical signs of intoxication. "drunk" was simply "normal" for them. Point being, it's not always obvious and certain that someone is intoxicated, and accusing them of showing up intoxicated is a pretty big "no-turning back" step, one that would go badly for the accuser if it turned out that he was mistaken and the accusee was stone cold sober. At the very least, you're now known throughout the airline as the guy accuses co-workers of drinking when they haven't been. So it's understandable that someone might be a little hesitant to ring the "You're drunk and I'm reporting you" bell unless they're pretty confident their suspicions are correct. Would you summon the authorities for a fellow crewmember who wasn't showing outward signs of being drunk and smelled of aftershave and breathmints? What it it turns out he just likes aftershave and breath mints?
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Old 4th Nov 2018, 17:23
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Not first , not last .

He had been due to be part of a crew flying a Japan Airlines (JAL) flight JL44 to Tokyo but failed a breath test 50 minutes before the departure time.
The Boeing 777 aircraft took off after a 69-minute delay.
- Maybe he went to the toilet on the way to the plane, BUT fair play to the Bus Driver should be promote.
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Old 5th Nov 2018, 06:07
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Whatever happened to the Pilot from BA who was reported as being 'drunk' before departing ARN about 10 or 15 years ago? Apparently he was sacked. Was there a prosecution - and if so what was the result?

It's a long time ago but it seems that at the time all the press were reporting that the pilot was drunk - and yet I can find no news of a prosecution. Is it possible that the authorities found that blood test results indicated the pilot was not actually 'drunk', or was it possible that the authorities somehow 'messed up' or 'lost' the tests.

If not prosecuted, or if prosecuted and found not guilty then it would seem unjust that the pilot was sacked.. I believe that because of the uncertainty the pilot was sacked because he had 'brought the company into disrepute'. Is that so?

Interesting stuff.


Kind regards
Exeng
Come on! you had a serious drinking problem, didn't you? You admitted as much.
You lost your job at BA but kept your licence and kept flying, quite a result if you ask me. I would be thanking my lucky star if I was you. You where treated with a LOT more compassion and consideration than many people would advocate in this site
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Old 5th Nov 2018, 07:25
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by exeng View Post
Whatever happened to the Pilot from BA who was reported as being 'drunk' before departing ARN about 10 or 15 years ago? Apparently he was sacked. Was there a prosecution - and if so what was the result?

It's a long time ago but it seems that at the time all the press were reporting that the pilot was drunk - and yet I can find no news of a prosecution. Is it possible that the authorities found that blood test results indicated the pilot was not actually 'drunk', or was it possible that the authorities somehow 'messed up' or 'lost' the tests.

If not prosecuted, or if prosecuted and found not guilty then it would seem unjust that the pilot was sacked.. I believe that because of the uncertainty the pilot was sacked because he had 'brought the company into disrepute'. Is that so?

Interesting stuff.


Kind regards
Exeng
There are a number of aspects to your question. One is that a lack of a criminal conviction is not proof of innocence. A verdict of "Not guilty" does not mean that the court found that the defendant was innocent, just that his guilt wasn't proven" beyond a reasonable doubt". That's a pretty high standard (intentionally so) and it's a long way from having been shown to shown to be innocent. A company making a decision to retain or dismiss an employee is not a court, nor is it a criminal issue, so the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard isn't applicable. If anything it seems like a company would be more guided by the "preponderance of evidence" standard used in civil matters. I would assume that would be the standard which would apply if their decision were to be contested in court (but I may be assuming too much) It also may be that the company's decision to dismiss someone is informed by information not available to a criminal court. Just as a purely hypothetical example, criminal defense counsel might have a blood alcohol test result of 0.12% suppressed, because a piece of lab equipment had missed a mandatory calibration date by a day, so a jury might never see that result. Meanwhile a manager might have seen that report, and might (reasonably) conclude that there's a fairly low probability that the equipment went that badly out of calibration in 24 hours, and choose to be guided by that BAC test result that the jury never saw.

In sum:

Neither the lack of a conviction nor the lack of a prosecution is proof of innocence.

A company is not a criminal court, so employee infractions do not have to be proven "beyond a reasonable doubt."

A company is not a court at all, a court's rules of evidence do not apply, so a company's decision may be based on information which a court wouldn't be allowed to consider.

Stack those together and it's neither remarkable nor outrageous that an employee might be dismissed in an incident that did not result in a criminal conviction.

Last edited by A Squared; 5th Nov 2018 at 12:26.
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Old 5th Nov 2018, 15:25
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Par for the course in Korea and Japan.

This happens a lot more often than is reported. It is a serious problem and I've tried to do my part in reducing it through some of the training I do for those that utilize my services.

East Asia has a serious drinking problem and when you mix it in with the Korean and Japanese culture of "Whatever the boss says and does is never wrong" it is a recipe for disaster.
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Old 5th Nov 2018, 21:11
  #33 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by paradoxbox View Post
Par for the course in Korea and Japan.

This happens a lot more often than is reported. It is a serious problem and I've tried to do my part in reducing it through some of the training I do for those that utilize my services.

East Asia has a serious drinking problem and when you mix it in with the Korean and Japanese culture of "Whatever the boss says and does is never wrong" it is a recipe for disaster.
My Mrs. (who is Japanese) reports that this is less of a problem amongst younger generations; bosses are less able to "insist" these days. Does still happen though. Intervening in someone else's private affairs is a big taboo, even if the need to do so it pretty stark. This is a big problem for safety.

Japan tends not to have rules / regulations / laws for things where there is a belief that everyone involved will naturally do the right thing. That's great, right up until they discover it isn't true. And so now we hear that the Japanese government is rushing in new regulations concerning enforcement of pilot sobriety...
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Old 5th Nov 2018, 21:47
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by exeng
Whatever happened to the Pilot from BA who was reported as being 'drunk' before departing ARN about 10 or 15 years ago? Apparently he was sacked. Was there a prosecution - and if so what was the result?

It's a long time ago but it seems that at the time all the press were reporting that the pilot was drunk - and yet I can find no news of a prosecution. Is it possible that the authorities found that blood test results indicated the pilot was not actually 'drunk', or was it possible that the authorities somehow 'messed up' or 'lost' the tests.

If not prosecuted, or if prosecuted and found not guilty then it would seem unjust that the pilot was sacked.. I believe that because of the uncertainty the pilot was sacked because he had 'brought the company into disrepute'. Is that so?

Interesting stuff.


Kind regards
Exeng
If I recall correctly, the incident happened in early 2003 and the pilot was dismissed following a disciplinary hearing. Whatever the grounds for dismissal, if an employee deviates from the employer's standards or contractual requirements I guess the company can terminate employment - assuming disciplinary procedures are applied correctly. The law regarding limits on breath/blood-alcohol levels for aviation workers in the UK was introduced around mid-2003, hence at the time of the event no law was broken (well, not as a result of specific alcohol levels in the body, anyway) and so nothing to prosecute.
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Old 6th Nov 2018, 02:40
  #35 (permalink)  
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Some regulatory authorities, but not all, won't specify a cut-off time for drinking, only that it is an offence to report for duty when unfit due to alcohol or drug consumption, so a real bender at lunchtime can still leave you unfit for most of the following day. Companies can/do give a cut-off time for drinking in their OM, eight to twelve hours seems the most common and even if no state, federal or country laws are broken, (so no prosecution), an individual can still be dismissed for breaching the company OM.

India is one country that has a countrywide law forbidding drink within twelve hours of reporting for duty and I remember a case where the hotel were asked to produce the room service receipts to establish just what time last drinks were ordered. Moral of that story is pay cash and tip well!
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Old 6th Nov 2018, 05:40
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Ordering a drink is not proof that one drank it. I have, very occasionally, bought drinks for others....
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Old 6th Nov 2018, 05:46
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Originally Posted by LookingForAJob View Post
If I recall correctly, the incident happened in early 2003 and the pilot was dismissed following a disciplinary hearing. Whatever the grounds for dismissal, if an employee deviates from the employer's standards or contractual requirements I guess the company can terminate employment - assuming disciplinary procedures are applied correctly. The law regarding limits on breath/blood-alcohol levels for aviation workers in the UK was introduced around mid-2003, hence at the time of the event no law was broken (well, not as a result of specific alcohol levels in the body, anyway) and so nothing to prosecute.
He was caught in Sweden, so Swedish criminal law would apply.
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Old 7th Nov 2018, 03:39
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And so now we hear that the Japanese government is rushing in new regulations concerning enforcement of pilot sobriety...
No, what we're now hearing is the usual Japanese knee-jerk reaction and being seen to be strict guardians of the Right Way.......when we all know how far from the truth that is.

The rules were/are already in force. It's not a matter of doing things because it's the right thing to do. The rules and regulations concerning alcohol and flying duties are there in black and white and this pilot disobeyed them. Will it be just him who is punished? Of course not; that is not the Japanese way.

The Japanese seem absolutely incapable of dealing with the actual trouble-makers and, instead, apply blanket punishments and restrictions to everyone......just in case. The recent ANA manager is a very good case in point. He'd had a few wines and accidentally sat on a woman who was asleep in her lie-flat bed, believing it was his seat. Nothing deliberate. He wasn't wandering the place legless, just a genuine mistake. But, of course, he was considered 'drunk; and instantly fired and now ALL ANA Group employees are banned from consuming alcohol on ANA flights, including in the lounges, even if they are on full fare commuting tickets. All of this just so ANA can turn round and show how they have dealt with such disgraceful behaviour as shown by the manager for sitting in the wrong seat
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 19:51
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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I've heard the HIMS (Home) people talk about some internet device that can be used to demonstrate compliance with flightcrew alcohol restrictions at international outstations. Not sure if it can be used for random tests overseas for U.S. crewmembers not in the HIMS program though. Traditionally you couldn't be tested randomly by the airline outside the U.S. However, the airline or airport staff could report you to the local authorities for testing if you showed up drunk. Unfortunately, that press-to-test has been done many times.

Japan Airlines pilots failed alcohol tests 19 times since since August 2017 causing 12 flight delays

November 15, 2018Japan Airlines pilots have failed breathalyzer alcohol tests on 19 occasions since August 2017, causing 12 domestic flight delays due to pilot switches, JAL officials have revealed to the Mainichi Shimbun.

The major airline introduced a new type of detector for in-house checks that month. The revelation comes on the heels of the arrest of a JAL co-pilot in London by British police in October this year for allegedly arriving for duty on a flight to Haneda Airport in Tokyo with alcohol levels above the legal limit.

As the co-pilot had never failed an alcohol check on the old type of breathalyzer, it is possible that deceiving the device was rampant among some pilots at the airline.

According the company, the cause of the 12 delays was announced as “crew health conditions,” and no mention was made about their breath alcohol levels. JAL, which is scheduled to have a press conference on Nov. 16 to reveal countermeasures to curb excessive drinking by pilots, will be hard pressed to explain the delayed flights in detail.

Current JAL regulations ban drinking within 12 hours of a flight, and obligate pilots to undergone breathalyzer tests before flying. In August last year, the airline introduced a new type of detector that checks breath blown through a straw, and records data via an internet connection.

In response to the London incident, JAL checked the stored data to find that 19 cases exceeded the alcohol limit of 0.1 milligrams per 1 liter of exhalation, resulting in 12 flight delays.

(Japanese original by Norihito Hanamure, City News Department)

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Old 16th Nov 2018, 09:22
  #40 (permalink)  
aox
 
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https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46231780

This also has the above statistics of 19 infringements and 12 delays, and later:

Japan Airlines will implement a series of measures as a result of the recent breaches.

These include new breathalyser systems at overseas airports and introducing penalties "for flight crew violating the regulated alcohol concentration level".

The new systems are already in place at Heathrow and domestic airports in Japan, the spokesperson said.

They will be introduced at other airports on 19 November.

Pilots will also be prohibited from consuming alcohol in the 24 hours prior to reporting for a flight from Japan, the firm said.
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