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Indonesian aircraft missing off Jakarta

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Indonesian aircraft missing off Jakarta

Old 3rd Nov 2018, 06:54
  #481 (permalink)  
 
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If they cannot keep their ships in one place because of the strong currents, and they are denied permission to anchor their ships above the crash site because of Pertamina pipelines underwater, and if the divers are using handheld lights, you have to wonder about the state of the seabed there where an airliner crashed through it all.
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 07:20
  #482 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by xfsd View Post
Have not seen any mention of CCTV from JKT ground ops/control of a 737 with streamers on the side of it taxiing/departing?
Pitot covers would surely have have red 'Remove before flight' streamers - new A/C standard equipment?
So what do you conclude from the absence of such reports ?
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 08:23
  #483 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by xfsd View Post
Have not seen any mention of CCTV from JKT ground ops/control of a 737 with streamers on the side of it taxiing/departing?
Pitot covers would surely have have red 'Remove before flight' streamers - new A/C standard equipment?
Like these ? Malaysian at Brisbane, pushing back, taking off and trying to climb with all 3 pitot cover streamers perfectly visible....
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 08:41
  #484 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FullWings View Post
I find it interesting that the pilot asks for “airspeed” from ATC.
I can't see attaching a lot of significance to that. It seems pretty plausible that in a moment of stress with a lot of things going on that a pilot might not spend a lot of time thinking about whether it is airspeed or groundspeed that ATC has displayed before them.
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 08:46
  #485 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Airbubba View Post
I would think a brand new 737 MAX would have EHS capability. If so and if ATC did as well, maybe the 332 knot reading was indeed indicated airspeed and transmitted with the Mode S data.
What are the odds that Jakarta ATC is going to have the equipment to receive and display EHS data? From what I've been able to determine, that is years away in the US, not to suggest that that the US is leader in adopting the technology. Just guessing, I would put Indonesia fairly far down on the list of early adopters.
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 09:27
  #486 (permalink)  
 
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The aircraft I used to fly had so many interconnects between left hand, right hand and sby instruments we were told even if two are indicating the same it might be those two that are wrong, why are aircraft being designed like this?
everything is now so over complicated it’s almost impossible to have a working knowledge of systems.
simple solution have sby instruments from a c152 without any computer between the sensors and instruments.
this won’t remedy poor flying skills though!
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 10:06
  #487 (permalink)  
 
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I find it interesting that the pilot asks for “airspeed” from ATC.
Probably has more to do with the vagaries of English - Bahasa - English, then journalese, than actually what was said or intended. Then again some people on here have surmised the 737 fell apart in the air based on the possible reported size of something found underwater that might have been an aeroplane. So fill your boots with drawing conclusions from inconsequential nonsense. The level of extrapolation from the tiniest piece of (mis) information is mind boggling. I hope most of those posting are not airline pilots because the level of delusion is amazing.

Keep it up.
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 10:29
  #488 (permalink)  
 
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I find it interesting that the pilot asks for “airspeed” from ATC.
Entirely logical! You're close to the ground (IAS vs TAS not an issue), in good radar contact (airport just behind you) and your speed indications are haywire. Why not? Use the resources available to you.
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 10:43
  #489 (permalink)  
 
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If it has not been said already, you would be lucky to find a square metre of that particular segment of ocean floor that was not already covered in man made objects long before the aircraft added to the burden.
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 10:53
  #490 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs View Post
Entirely logical! You're close to the ground (IAS vs TAS not an issue), in good radar contact (airport just behind you) and your speed indications are haywire. Why not? Use the resources available to you.
All that is true, but I think the point the poster was making was that the crew requested "airspeed" rather than "groundspeed". As I said earlier, I think that trying to find deeper meaning in this is reading the tea leaves a little too hard.
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 11:34
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Originally Posted by TangoAlphad View Post


Don’t most ATC units display data sent from the aircraft, not radar calculated ground speed? Genuine question.

No, *some* ATC facilities have the ability to receive and display airspeed data sent from the airplane. It's not anywhere close to *most* This is implemented in Europe, and maybe a few other places. It is not implemented in the US, at least according to my conversations with US Controllers. I'd be surprised if this was installed in Indonesia. Generally, Air Traffic Control is transitioning to being based on self reported position and altitude but it's just in the beginning stages of that. For the most part Air Traffic control is still based primarily on ground radar information .
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 12:17
  #492 (permalink)  
 
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O/T

Originally Posted by AGBagb View Post
Like these ? Malaysian at Brisbane, pushing back, taking off and trying to climb with all 3 pitot cover streamers perfectly visible....
That report makes sobering reading. At a location renown for insect problems the crew did not look at the pressure heads, didn't count them, anything; or did they just see what they wanted to see?
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 12:35
  #493 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by A Squared View Post
All that is true, but I think the point the poster was making was that the crew requested "airspeed" rather than "groundspeed". As I said earlier, I think that trying to find deeper meaning in this is reading the tea leaves a little too hard.
English not being first language being a factor?

Also, it confirms to you ‘What’ on your instruments is correct. Okay, so now you know GS readout is correct.
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 13:06
  #494 (permalink)  
 
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Icarus2001 . . .

Originally Posted by Icarus2001 View Post
They may well have plenty of understanding but in today's environment the crew simply follow what the QRH or recall says to do. They have to, there is no choice. When multiple failures occur the crucial aspect is determining the root cause. I have been with crew in the sim that announced a generator failure, the actual failure was an engine failure, inability to sort the wheat from the chaff will kill people. Knowing WHICH QRH item or recall to do first is important,
Be careful with that as you wouldn't want to be circling to work the QRH while on fire.
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 13:22
  #495 (permalink)  
 
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At no stage in a Boeing manual , FCTM or QRH does it imply to ask ATC for a airspeed reading.
It does however , merely advise quailfied crews that ATC radars may be utilised for a ground speed readout.
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 13:25
  #496 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by glad rag View Post
That report makes sobering reading. At a location renown for insect problems the crew did not look at the pressure heads, didn't count them, anything; or did they just see what they wanted to see?
No ground crew mentioned the 3 red flags either; and, for that matter, no other taxying a/c saw or said anything.
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 13:34
  #497 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by A Squared View Post
No, *some* ATC facilities have the ability to receive and display airspeed data sent from the airplane. It's not anywhere close to *most* This is implemented in Europe, and maybe a few other places. It is not implemented in the US, at least according to my conversations with US Controllers. I'd be surprised if this was installed in Indonesia. Generally, Air Traffic Control is transitioning to being based on self reported position and altitude but it's just in the beginning stages of that. For the most part Air Traffic control is still based primarily on ground radar information .
ADS-B is capable of providing ATC with indicated airspace as I understand it, not true airspeed. The FAA claims they do not plan to implement this feature.
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 13:39
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Originally Posted by groundbum View Post
if the instruments were displaying faulty data because of blocked pitot tubes/dodgy connections/et al, wouldn't it follow that the FDR data will also be suspect?
It's certainly possible that those FDR parameters whcih are derived from pitot/static measurement might be suspect. However, the FDR records at least 88 parameters, whcih include geographic position and acceleration in all 3 axes, whcih are completely independent of any pitot/static errors whcih might have been occurring. If you have independent position and acceleration data, it becomes a pretty simple task to determine if the recorded altitude and airspeed information is in error.
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 13:45
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Originally Posted by aterpster View Post
ADS-B is capable of providing ATC with indicated airspace as I understand it, not true airspeed.
That is my understanding as well, although I think it's more accurate to say that Mode S Enhanced Surveillance is the means by whcih the IAS is provided to ATC.


Originally Posted by aterpster View Post
The FAA claims they do not plan to implement this feature.
Interesting, Not long ago I had been trying to find out if and when it would be appearing in US ARTCCs, the informal answer I got from various controllers was "we don't have it, no idea when we will" I hadn't heard that "Ain't gonna happen" was the FAA's official position.
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Old 3rd Nov 2018, 13:54
  #500 (permalink)  
 
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The safety record of Lion Air is but one piece of the puzzle. Regardless of their history, they can still be involved in an accident that is not the fault of the crew. If you are biased at the start of an investigation you are likely to miss vital clues. On a purely statistical side note, many well known carriers have a higher fatality record than Lion Air.

Significant investigative effort should also be placed on examining the procedures, training, and corporate culture at the accident airline.
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