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Shamrock A330 and New York tracon run-in

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Shamrock A330 and New York tracon run-in

Old 30th Jul 2018, 13:25
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sailvi767 View Post


Let me fix this for you. Out of all the major airports in the world JFK/LGA/EWR/TER/HPN/SWF has the most traffic in a very confined airspace of any airports in the world. It’s good they also have the best ATC. Most European controllers heads would explode if they had to work in NYC.
All the more reason for using standard phraseology and applying clear and concise clearances. Especially to NON native English speakers. Just take a look at LHR and see what is also possible!

London Area is even busier then NYC and adjacent to busy airspaces in France and the Netherlands.
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Old 30th Jul 2018, 13:59
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Magplug View Post
Go and check out the stats.... London remains the busiest airspace in the world - ahead of New York by a significant margin. In fact the LHR, LGW, LTN, STN, CDG, ORY, RTM, AMS triangle is controlled by 3 different countries depite being a similar area size to New York ARTCC. Nobody gets shouted at, nobody gets angry and no controllers speak patronisingly to foreign aircraft as if they are idiots. Most importantly they remain professional with no macho BS.

I hope you get to read this before another of my posts gets taken down. I appear to have a knack of hitting the nail on the head.
You are correct that London Area airspace is busiest, However, Heathrow and Gatwick are a fair distance apart and both East / West, London City is a reasonable distance away to the East of Heathrow. and the other airports are too far away to be an issue, Now compare that to the runways and instrument procedures for JFK, LGA, EWR, TEB, These are complex interfering procedures. Numbers are important but so is complexity. [ BTW I worked at London Centre for several years and a few years later helped with a procedure design exercise for NY TRACON so I have some experience of both airspaces]
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Old 30th Jul 2018, 14:14
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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The comment "Aviate Navigate Communicate " speaks volumes!
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Old 30th Jul 2018, 16:57
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ACMS View Post
Aren’t they supposed to be providing a SERVICE.

End of story.

That's exactly what ATC provided - they continued to provide separation for Shamrock, and the other flights, while trying to fit Shamrock into a gap to continue their departure.
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Old 30th Jul 2018, 17:44
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Magplug View Post
Go and check out the stats.... London remains the busiest airspace in the world - ahead of New York by a significant margin. In fact the LHR, LGW, LTN, STN, CDG, ORY, RTM, AMS triangle is controlled by 3 different countries depite being a similar area size to New York ARTCC. Nobody gets shouted at, nobody gets angry and no controllers speak patronisingly to foreign aircraft as if they are idiots. Most importantly they remain professional with no macho BS.

I hope you get to read this before another of my posts gets taken down. I appear to have a knack of hitting the nail on the head.
It's the low altitude arena where separations are reduced. LHR (LHR, GTW, LTN, STN) has approx. 1,070,000 aircraft movements. PANYNJ lists the last 12 months for their region as 1,300,000 flights, of which 1,230,000 were airline movements.

LHR is approx. 475,000 flights. JFK is 447,000, EWR is 450,000 and LGA is 368,000. Imagine putting EWR at Windsor Castle, JFK at the final approach fix for LHR 27L/R, and LGA at Big Ben. That would give you an idea of the density and NYC has. Or putting an airport with 550,000 flights between LHR and GTW(550,000 to bring the combined total to the NYC total)?

Adding in CDG and AMS? Adding them brings the total to 2.05 million flights in a triangle. NYC-DC is 2.3 million flights over the same distance. It's called 'the northeast corridor' for a region. That's not counting the greater number of GA movements the U.S. has.
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Old 30th Jul 2018, 19:01
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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can someone please enlighten me how is this discussion even relevant? Shamrock asked for a 220 heading for 15 miles, it brings them South from JFK and away from all the mentioned airports and their SIDs/STARs as far as my eye can see. Give these guys what they ask for, turn them over the sea with wide easterly vector after 15 miles, job done. Looking back at the FR24 playbacks I just don't see the issue? Am I missing something?
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Old 30th Jul 2018, 19:49
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Private jet View Post
ATC, despite the "C" standing for control, is, ultimately an advisory service. It is the responsibility of the PIC to get the aircraft safely between A & B, and to take whatever measures he or she sees fit in order to do that. Of course non standard actions need to be justified but it is important to remember that the air traffic service is there to assist the pilot, not the other way around. If controllers are unhappy with the restrictions in airspace then they need to address their superiors and not get short with the flightcrew.
yeah cause that all controllers do is an ADVISORY service.!!!

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Old 31st Jul 2018, 01:04
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Magplug View Post
Go and check out the stats.... London remains the busiest airspace in the world - ahead of New York by a significant margin. In fact the LHR, LGW, LTN, STN, CDG, ORY, RTM, AMS triangle is controlled by 3 different countries depite being a similar area size to New York ARTCC. Nobody gets shouted at, nobody gets angry and no controllers speak patronisingly to foreign aircraft as if they are idiots. Most importantly they remain professional with no macho BS.

I hope you get to read this before another of my posts gets taken down. I appear to have a knack of hitting the nail on the head.
i am not even sure what your talking about. AMS and CDG are over 150 miles away. I am talking 4 major airports all in a 20 mile box. We are talking about approach and departure control not enroute. Using your standard of distance we would need to add BOS, PHL, BDL, IAD, DCA, BWI ect.. to the mix. To do so however has zero validity as they have nothing to do with approach and departure operations.
The 4 main NYC airports are controlled by one ATC entity as they effectively operate as one large airport. Not the case at all in what you are describing. Draw a 20 mile circle around those airports and there is no busier airspace anywhere. NYC approach control currently handles over 4000 flights a day not counting low altitude transient aircraft. In the 4pm to 8pm peak they are dealing with 350 to 500 flights an hour with convective weather activity a order of magnitude larger then LHR, CDG or AMS deal with.

Last edited by Sailvi767; 31st Jul 2018 at 01:26.
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Old 31st Jul 2018, 04:10
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Magplug View Post
Go and check out the stats.... London remains the busiest airspace in the world - ahead of New York by a significant margin. In fact the LHR, LGW, LTN, STN, CDG, ORY, RTM, AMS triangle is controlled by 3 different countries depite being a similar area size to New York ARTCC. Nobody gets shouted at, nobody gets angry and no controllers speak patronisingly to foreign aircraft as if they are idiots. Most importantly they remain professional with no macho BS.

I hope you get to read this before another of my posts gets taken down. I appear to have a knack of hitting the nail on the head.
Are they all sandwiched in a 20 mile circle? We don't claim to be the busiest, but nobody beats this place in complexity. Apples and oranges my friend!

Also, don't compare NY ARTCC to us. We are the New York Tracon or N90. Our airspace is a tiny fraction of ZNY's (NY ARTCC).
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Old 31st Jul 2018, 04:15
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Martin_123 View Post
can someone please enlighten me how is this discussion even relevant? Shamrock asked for a 220 heading for 15 miles, it brings them South from JFK and away from all the mentioned airports and their SIDs/STARs as far as my eye can see. Give these guys what they ask for, turn them over the sea with wide easterly vector after 15 miles, job done. Looking back at the FR24 playbacks I just don't see the issue? Am I missing something?
You're missing the part where they have to go intrail with all the other GREKI departures that are coming out of all the airports. There are other tracks to the southwest with other traffic (a lot of the arrival tracks are in that direction). We don't have a spot in the sky anywhere that's not being used for something.
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Old 31st Jul 2018, 04:25
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Juan Tugoh View Post


Unreasonable, reasonable - is completely missing the point; sure ATC have structural problems in NYC but any action in the Commander’s opinion that is for the safety of the aircraft overrrides your concerns about pushing tin. We all know the airspace restrictions in NYC so for the Shamrock to determine they could not take the avoidance is the overriding factor, any inconvenience of the controller and their requirements become entirely subordinate to the requirements of the aircraft needing deviation. If that means departures are slowed down, delayed or halted, then so be it. NYC airports are not unique, LHR in bad weather is a nightmare of delays due to weather avoidance but it’s always safety before “throughput”.
I like the "overrides your concerns about pushing tin" comment. More like my concerns about tin not hitting more tin. Things to keep in mind reference this case. The controller in this instance is ONLY working JFK departures and he has ZERO control over the other traffic in the adjacent airspace. He has to contain aircraft under his control inside his allocated airspace. The other controllers are busy, and on nights like this very likely to be dealing with their own issues with weather deviations. Controllers workloads skyrocket every time there's deviations like this.
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Old 31st Jul 2018, 08:38
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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All of that is true I’m sure N90 but at the end of the day we (the industry) don’t want to go too far down the road of pilots thinking that declining a heading is going to cause a gigantic headache for them ( this pilot probably has a headache by now). If the pilot had felt it was better to fly through the cell than increase the controllers workload, and as such accepted the clearance, and picked up hail damage and injured pax, we would all be wondering why he accepted the heading. We’d be saying things like “ who cares if they have to halt departures, just keep the aircraft safe, the controllers there are the best in the world they’ll conjure up a plan “.
This is really a storm in a tea cup in that nobody was hurt, two blokes got a fraction shirty with each other, job done.
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Old 31st Jul 2018, 09:14
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 73qanda View Post
All of that is true I’m sure N90 but at the end of the day we (the industry) don’t want to go too far down the road of pilots thinking that declining a heading is going to cause a gigantic headache for them ( this pilot probably has a headache by now). If the pilot had felt it was better to fly through the cell than increase the controllers workload, and as such accepted the clearance, and picked up hail damage and injured pax, we would all be wondering why he accepted the heading. We’d be saying things like “ who cares if they have to halt departures, just keep the aircraft safe, the controllers there are the best in the world they’ll conjure up a plan “.
This is really a storm in a tea cup in that nobody was hurt, two blokes got a fraction shirty with each other, job done.

This was a no event as far as we are concerned. The ones that have made this a storm were the pilot, and the media (social media-forums, etc). The controller has had a great career that spans well over 3 decades working traffic here at the New York Tracon, and he is retiring at the end of the year with a max retirement. All that talk about "My boss will call your boss" means nothing. Bottom line he did nothing wrong from an operational point of view, it was reviewed, and declared a non event.

As for declining a heading, yes that is your decision as PIC. We are not debating that. We are in agreement that you must follow whatever course of action you deem is the safest for your aircraft. What followed the declining of the heading was a consequence of the airspace limitations, weather, and traffic situation he had at the moment. We don't do "penalty vectors". We don't want you on our radar scopes one second longer than needed, but we have set rules and procedures to follow, and safety is also our number 1 priority.
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Old 31st Jul 2018, 11:28
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Martin_123 View Post
can someone please enlighten me how is this discussion even relevant? Shamrock asked for a 220 heading for 15 miles, it brings them South from JFK and away from all the mentioned airports and their SIDs/STARs as far as my eye can see. Give these guys what they ask for, turn them over the sea with wide easterly vector after 15 miles, job done. Looking back at the FR24 playbacks I just don't see the issue? Am I missing something?
Yes, you are missing the fact that runs them through the arrival traffic. Airports have both arrivals and departures. You would however need to know the precise runway configurations in use at LGA and JFK to see the true impact.
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Old 1st Aug 2018, 10:53
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by N90-EWR View Post
This was a no event as far as we are concerned. The ones that have made this a storm were the pilot, and the media (social media-forums, etc). The controller has had a great career that spans well over 3 decades working traffic here at the New York Tracon, and he is retiring at the end of the year with a max retirement. All that talk about "My boss will call your boss" means nothing. Bottom line he did nothing wrong from an operational point of view, it was reviewed, and declared a non event.

As for declining a heading, yes that is your decision as PIC. We are not debating that. We are in agreement that you must follow whatever course of action you deem is the safest for your aircraft. What followed the declining of the heading was a consequence of the airspace limitations, weather, and traffic situation he had at the moment. We don't do "penalty vectors". We don't want you on our radar scopes one second longer than needed, but we have set rules and procedures to follow, and safety is also our number 1 priority.
I think some of you should spend some time in other busy control centres to see how they handle high traffic volumes without being petulant and condescending, nevermind the fact you guys and girls pretty much use the most non-standard comms out there.

We're all stressful in times of bad weather and high traffic volumes. I think it helps if people can be nice to one another instead of being jerks.
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Old 1st Aug 2018, 15:33
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Martin_123 View Post
can someone please enlighten me how is this discussion even relevant? Shamrock asked for a 220 heading for 15 miles, it brings them South from JFK and away from all the mentioned airports and their SIDs/STARs as far as my eye can see. Give these guys what they ask for, turn them over the sea with wide easterly vector after 15 miles, job done. Looking back at the FR24 playbacks I just don't see the issue? Am I missing something?
Where did you think JFK and LGA arrivals from the south and south-west arrive from? And the JFK arrivals from the NW also get routed south over Staten Island and make a left turn to descend on an easterly heading to enter a left downwind for the 22's @ JFK. To give you an idea of the airspace problems. the flights inbound to JFK from the west cross LENDY at FL190 which approx. 20 nm NW of JFK. They can't come from the west (EWR) or north/north-east(LGA) because other airports control that airspace.
Which LHR arrivals put you 14,000' high 20 nm from the airport?

Last edited by misd-agin; 1st Aug 2018 at 15:36. Reason: added LENDY and 14,000' comments
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Old 1st Aug 2018, 15:56
  #97 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by N90-EWR View Post
I like the "overrides your concerns about pushing tin" comment. More like my concerns about tin not hitting more tin. Things to keep in mind reference this case. The controller in this instance is ONLY working JFK departures and he has ZERO control over the other traffic in the adjacent airspace. He has to contain aircraft under his control inside his allocated airspace. The other controllers are busy, and on nights like this very likely to be dealing with their own issues with weather deviations. Controllers workloads skyrocket every time there's deviations like this.
Maybe try listening to LHR controllers when it gets busy with Thunderstorms and deviation required. The guy maybe experienced with a great career but he lost his cool, he screwed up, which is why it got highlighted here and other places. Your loyalty does you credit, but there comes a time when it’s the right thing to do to admit that, on this occasion, he could have done better. Failure to do so is the biggest error as it suggests that we can expect to see a repeat of the poor event. No-one in aviation is perfect - we all have days where we act in a way that we would like to improve on should the situation arise. For this controller, this is one of those moments - he should learn from it and move on. No-one died and that is the big deal, but the attitude could easily have been a contributing factor is a nasty event, a hole in the Swiss cheese. It wasn’t so it becomes a learning point, and if we learn by our mistakes most of us are getting a great education.
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Old 1st Aug 2018, 16:21
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by N90-EWR View Post
He did make a new plan, which is the same plan any of us would had done: Hold him until a gap to go back over GREKI became available. The only thing he did wrong was getting into a verbal contest with the pilot, which I agree was unnecessary. I'd argue that the "my boss will call your boss" parting shot from the pilot was also uncalled for as well.
Does anyone know if the bosses wound up actually discussing this?
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Old 1st Aug 2018, 18:13
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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Other than perhaps being verbally impolite, can someone tell me what the ATC did wrong? Shamrock said he couldn't turn left, ATC airspace restrictions say he can't continue on runway heading, so ATC turned him right. After an orbit or two, Shamrock asked for a direct route to GREKI, but such a route was impossible from his current orbiting location without intruding on LGA airspace. Further, the ATC had other planes (who presumably did turn left) in a line traveling to GREKI. When a break in this line was feasible, Shamrock was inserted into the mix. End of story other than for the willy-waving by Shamrock and ATC's retort that it was Shamrock's refusal to turn left that is what caused the orbits. So tell me, what is incorrect about this narrative? Other than being more polite, what should ATC have done differently?
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Old 1st Aug 2018, 18:43
  #100 (permalink)  
 
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This is New York. He was polite. These guys handle GA traffic popping up out of nowhere and Heavies not taking to anyone with style. The vast majority of the time you can hear the humor in Approach & Finals instructions. Flying in this airspace almost every day there's nowhere I'd rather be..
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