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MH17 Investigators Report

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MH17 Investigators Report

Old 28th May 2018, 11:48
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Originally Posted by TC_Ukraine
first minutes after downing MH17, russian media reported about crash of ukrainian military AN-26, not SU2074. If they really wanted to hit Aeroflot, they would ve report about it instantly. IMHO.
besides if Russi wanted to hit their jet on purpose, they could launch a "low-speed" rocket when aircraft passed state border, to make it reach the target 10-15 minutes later and many miles away.
That wouldnt look so plausible. If its the case they would want it to look like a Ukrainian SAM launch from a contested or as near to a goverment controlled area as possible.
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Old 28th May 2018, 13:00
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Originally Posted by Sunamer


you mean,like, within a week USA had admitted they did it, unlike Russia?
Read post #30
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Old 28th May 2018, 13:17
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Originally Posted by ehwatezedoing

Denying shooting it down no, like I said that was pretty obvious where it was coming from, shifting blame yes.
The ‘Forgotten’ US Shootdown of Iranian Airliner Flight 655*
Thx ehwatezedoing for the link.

I'm speechless.......
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Old 28th May 2018, 13:28
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" In 1990, Rogers was awarded the Legion of Merit "for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as commanding officer .. "

Rogers commanded the shot down of Iran Air 655 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
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Old 28th May 2018, 13:38
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Originally Posted by Start Fore
I agree. There's always the Southern Routes while we punish Russia, for as long as that takes.

They're murdering scum, and they've been getting away with it for far far too long.

Russia should be completely isolated, for the time being.
for a minute I thought you were talking about the USA
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Old 28th May 2018, 18:41
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Genuinely I can not understand why such a big group of people who are involved in aviation can't have any other opinion on this tragedy. While I do understand that vast majority of gentlemen and ladies here watch mostly that type of "media" which clearly describes this accident in "Ukrainian" way and laugh when they see different versions, I don't understand why you keep blaming Russian "media" for propaganda ,when others do absolutely the same.
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Old 29th May 2018, 08:58
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Originally Posted by Nikker
Genuinely I can not understand why such a big group of people who are involved in aviation can't have any other opinion on this tragedy. While I do understand that vast majority of gentlemen and ladies here watch mostly that type of "media" which clearly describes this accident in "Ukrainian" way and laugh when they see different versions, I don't understand why you keep blaming Russian "media" for propaganda ,when others do absolutely the same.
Sure, no media is clean, but theres a big difference between the Russian state controlled media and the rest of the 'free'(ish) press.
I really don't know what other 'opinion' any well informed person is supposed to have, the facts are that a Russian military SAM covertly shot down a passenger jet.
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 22:10
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Ukrainian pilot blamed for MH17 'kills himself'

Ukrainian pilot blamed for MH17 'kills himself'
DAILY TELEGRAPH
Capt Vladyslav Voloshyn was blamed for the crash by Russian media and officials
Roland Oliphant 19 MARCH 2018 • 8:11PM
A Ukrainian pilot falsely accused by Russia of shooting down the MH17 airliner has reportedly taken his own life.....
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Old 1st Nov 2018, 15:16
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Originally Posted by TonyGosling
Ukrainian pilot blamed for MH17 'kills himself'
DAILY TELEGRAPH
Capt Vladyslav Voloshyn was blamed for the crash by Russian media and officials
Roland Oliphant 19 MARCH 2018 • 8:11PM
A Ukrainian pilot falsely accused by Russia of shooting down the MH17 airliner has reportedly taken his own life.....
He was an interim director of Mykolaiv airport at that time. He killed himself shortly after an investigation uncovered widespread corruption in some govt-funded development projects in the airport. He was deeply involved in that stuff. Sad story. No actual connection to MH-17 though.
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Old 8th Feb 2023, 19:11
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The Joint Investigating Team announced today that they have sufficient evidence that Putin personally authorized the delivery and use of the BUK that shot down MH17, and that once he's no longer president, and no longer has immunity, he may be prosecuted.

https://t.co/f1lBnWwcOA
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Old 9th Feb 2023, 01:11
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Originally Posted by ORAC
The Joint Investigating Team announced today that they have sufficient evidence that Putin personally authorized the delivery and use of the BUK that shot down MH17, and that once he's no longer president, and no longer has immunity, he may be prosecuted.
"Once he's no longer president" he will be deceased. Either from illness (that he is alleged to be currently suffering) or from an accident courtesy of the FSB.
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Old 9th Feb 2023, 07:52
  #52 (permalink)  
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But this is in fact just a side show.. Athorising the delivery of anti aircraft missiles in time of war is not unusual and there seem to be conscensus that the military staff l that operated the BUK did not target specifically the 777, and di not identify it as a civilian aircraft until after it was shot down . . Allowing civilian ttafiic to overfly a war area is more the issue I would say .
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Old 9th Feb 2023, 16:31
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
But this is in fact just a side show.. Athorising the delivery of anti aircraft missiles in time of war is not unusual and there seem to be conscensus that the military staff l that operated the BUK did not target specifically the 777, and di not identify it as a civilian aircraft until after it was shot down . . Allowing civilian ttafiic to overfly a war area is more the issue I would say .
Yes and no.

IF it had been known to Ukraine, that the airspace above the FL250 (or so, bear me the exact FL) was unsafe, the airspace would have been closed. Though according to available information, there were no weapons able to reach that Height/Altitude/FL (choose what measuring method you want to use) in that area, so the upper transit airways were presumed to be safe.

We do have a situation, that an alien "power" did bring a lethal weapon into an area, where they should not have been at all, with their military, able to reach the upper airways. Deploying such a weapon, brings the obligation to be careful with what you do. At least, that is the way rule based world order is reasoning. The dictatorial way of thinking (Russia, China, Iran, Trump, to name a few), just ignores this and tries to grab as much as they think, they can get away with, using whatever method seems to be effective (IE the way children in kindergarten do, though also gradually learn, there are rules, whether you are allowed to grab those nice sweets).

The Buk was sent/deployed without its normal control units, which would have been able to determine the foo difference of potential targets. Now, they only had a primary radar, showing there was an aircraft, without being able to identify the foo.

But hey, to realize & coordinate these things, you need to be civilized above the level of Neanderthals, something we not have seen developed in barbarian Russia, emphasized by the amount of war-crimes against the civilian population (and the slaughtering of their own troops in the meat grinders) .....
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Old 9th Feb 2023, 17:21
  #54 (permalink)  
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WideScreen :
IF it had been known to Ukraine, that the airspace above the FL250 (or so, bear me the exact FL) was unsafe, the airspace would have been closed.
That is subject to lot of controversy. Who knew what when and the motivation to keep the upper airspace open to get the revenue (in hard currency) of the overflying charges badly needed by Ukraine was there , bearing in mind it is the same Gvernement authority that both collect those charges and declare if the airspace is safe or not. .
Todays' Wikipedia is rather explicit emphasis on "today" )
On 26 May, a spokesperson of the Ukrainian Armed Forces stated that a surface-to-air missile system that was being used by the rebels, near Donetsk airport, had been destroyed by a helicopter of the Ukrainian army. On 6 June 2014 The International New York Times reported that surface-to-air missiles had been seized from military bases. On 11 June, the newspaper Argumenty nedeli [[url=https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumenty_nedeli]de] reported that a Buk-M1 missile launcher had been present in an area under the separatists' control. On 29 June the Russian news agencies reported that insurgents had obtained a Buk missile system after having taken control of Ukrainian military unit A-1402;[40][41] and the Donetsk People's Republic claimed possession of such a system in a since-deleted tweet.[40][42][43]

Such air defence systems cannot reliably identify and avoid civilian aircraft.[44][45] The Ukrainian authorities declared in the media that this system was not operational.[3]: 187–188  According to the subsequent statement of the Security Service of Ukraine, three Buk missile systems were located on militia-controlled territory at the time that Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 was shot down.
Did the Civil Ukrainian CAA knew ? They say no, But some Western airlines did had some info because they avoided all of the Ukrainian airspace from the beginning of June. ( one and half months before MH17) taking longer routings and additional costs.
But it is all hindsight and without proofs..
For the second part of your post, I fully agree. They are going back in the early Soviet era.
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Old 9th Feb 2023, 17:43
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Originally Posted by WideScreen
Yes and no.

IF it had been known to Ukraine, that the airspace above the FL250 (or so, bear me the exact FL) was unsafe, the airspace would have been closed. Though according to available information, there were no weapons able to reach that Height/Altitude/FL (choose what measuring method you want to use) in that area, so the upper transit airways were presumed to be safe.
The original restriction was to Fl 250, it was then (prior to the shoot down) lifted to Fl 320.

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Old 9th Feb 2023, 17:51
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
That is subject to lot of controversy. Who knew what when and the motivation to keep the upper airspace open to get the revenue (in hard currency) of the overflying charges badly needed by Ukraine was there , bearing in mind it is the same Gvernement authority that both collect those charges and declare if the airspace is safe or not. .
This.
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Old 9th Feb 2023, 20:34
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Originally Posted by Expatrick
This.
IMHO Ukraine was always very weird and dubious regarding civil aviation and other stuff relating aviation. For example during many years before this sad war, Ukraine was the main booster regarding breaking and corrupting sanctions towards Iran, issued by US and UE...We could been taxing on some main Iranian airports, and we could watch outside a vast myriad of exotic Iranian airlines and half of them were painted on the registration field by the famous letters UR-.
Mainly were those famous Maddogs and oldie 737s.
Lots of new Ukrainian airlines created (let's say) last decade and an half, (and some of them ceased to exist after some months) , were exclusively dedicated to lease planes to Iran new airlines. Some basic plane spotting websites could confirm this. Peace 🙏
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Old 9th Feb 2023, 21:24
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A question re the current war in Ukraine.
If one of the western supplied weapons were to shoot down a civil airliner, would our western leaders be legally responsible and likely to be prosecuted for supplying the weapon?
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Old 10th Feb 2023, 00:47
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Originally Posted by dixi188
If one of the western supplied weapons were to shoot down a civil airliner, would our western leaders be legally responsible and likely to be prosecuted for supplying the weapon?
If you drive drunk and hit a grandmother and her grand children, killing them, will someone sue Ford or BMW (or whomever built the car)?
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Old 10th Feb 2023, 01:32
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Originally Posted by dixi188
A question re the current war in Ukraine.
If one of the western supplied weapons were to shoot down a civil airliner, would our western leaders be legally responsible and likely to be prosecuted for supplying the weapon?
There are some subtle differences.

The 2014 Donbas situation was a Rebels (IE Terrorists) uprise in a country, where a foreign country (let's call that Russia) was stoking behind the curtains and providing weapons (including crew) to support the terrorists. Weapons, which they kept owning (the Buk&crew immediately went back to Russia, after it was found, a civilian airline was shot down). Russians pulled the trigger on their own decision to shoot.

The 2022/2023 Donbas situation is, that a country is defending its own legitimate territory against an invading foreign country. The defending country does purchase (in whatever form) weapons to do the defense and owns and crews the weapons with their own civilians drawn into the military. All decisions how to use the obtained weapons (either just destroy or to shoot) are by that countries' own military.

So, the reason this MH17 downing went to court, was simply, because it were foreign military with foreign weapons, acting illegally in the country to support the local terrorists. This is effectively state-terrorism, not a "regular" war, where civilian casualties can be expected.
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