Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

EC notice on BREXIT issued, licenses/certificates invalid

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

EC notice on BREXIT issued, licenses/certificates invalid

Old 1st Aug 2018, 15:33
  #341 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 836
Originally Posted by The Old Fat One View Post
All of this increasing attention to aviation is completely in line with expectation. IF ticket sales start to fall,
IF? Already happening, also from BBC: ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44949992 ) "Ryanair blamed a downturn in forward bookings and airfares in the Republic of Ireland"

That fall in bookings would appear to have happened around time of Brexit clause going in, would be interesting to know on which routes / dates the fall is. Of course there are many variables, it could also be due to the strikes, or some other cause - in so far as it is possible to tell we will probably never know because it suits people with various agendas to present one cause or another.

the pressure on the UK government will rise exponentially.
Would be wrong target - UK govt has, I believe, already stated it wants UK to stay in EASA. Of course that is not something within the UK's power to grant, would be more sensible to pressure those who can grant it.
infrequentflyer789 is offline  
Old 1st Aug 2018, 20:06
  #342 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
Posts: 4,126
Originally Posted by infrequentflyer789 View Post
Would be wrong target - UK govt has, I believe, already stated it wants UK to stay in EASA. Of course that is not something within the UK's power to grant, would be more sensible to pressure those who can grant it.
Well, the UK government knows the ways to be a member of EASA obviously, and that the EU does not want a bespoke agreement or cherry picking. So by choosing which aims to follow they implicitly have the power to get that or not. But of course, you are right as well, that the other side could do it out of the goodness of its heart if they want to, which however is not in the guidelines the negotiator was given by the european council (minus the UK obviously).
Denti is online now  
Old 1st Aug 2018, 21:31
  #343 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: London/Fort Worth
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by infrequentflyer789 View Post
IF? Already happening, also from BBC: ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44949992 ) "Ryanair blamed a downturn in forward bookings and airfares in the Republic of Ireland"

That fall in bookings would appear to have happened around time of Brexit clause going in, would be interesting to know on which routes / dates the fall is. Of course there are many variables, it could also be due to the strikes, or some other cause - in so far as it is possible to tell we will probably never know because it suits people with various agendas to present one cause or another.
Your link doesnt mention Brexit, it only cites the pilot strikes in Dublin. If the cause were anything to do with Brexit what would be gained by moving aircraft from Dublin to Warsaw?
BAengineer is offline  
Old 1st Aug 2018, 21:36
  #344 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: London/Fort Worth
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by Denti View Post
Well, the UK government knows the ways to be a member of EASA obviously, and that the EU does not want a bespoke agreement or cherry picking. So by choosing which aims to follow they implicitly have the power to get that or not. But of course, you are right as well, that the other side could do it out of the goodness of its heart if they want to, which however is not in the guidelines the negotiator was given by the european council (minus the UK obviously).
I have been looking at the EASA website but cant find anything about restricting membership to only countries in the EU or EEA. Can anyone find anything definitive.

The only comment on membership I have found from the European Comission is that if the UK remains in EASA it will have to accept the jurisdiction of the ECJ, which the UK Government has already accepted they will do.
BAengineer is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2018, 05:20
  #345 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,516
Would be wrong target - UK govt has, I believe, already stated it wants UK to stay in EASA. Of course that is not something within the UK's power to grant, would be more sensible to pressure those who can grant it.
Sorry, I didn't mean "pressure" in the sense of solving a specific issue. I meant pressure in the sense that as actual (as in really happening) material consequences of approaching brexit, be it aviation or anything else, the pressure on the government to do something - anything - will pile on inexorably. I agree, in this issue, as in others, solutions may lie outside the government's hands, but never in a million years will the voting public accept that. If this all goes petong (and I am not saying it will; I'm saying it damn sure might) the sitting government will be held responsible and there will be some sort of reckoning at the ballot box...although as in so much else, nobody knows what the outcome of that would be.
The Old Fat One is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2018, 08:42
  #346 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
Posts: 4,126
Originally Posted by BAengineer View Post
I have been looking at the EASA website but cant find anything about restricting membership to only countries in the EU or EEA. Can anyone find anything definitive.

The only comment on membership I have found from the European Comission is that if the UK remains in EASA it will have to accept the jurisdiction of the ECJ, which the UK Government has already accepted they will do.
Indeed, the EASA is just an agency of the EU, not in itself able to negotiate any membership, that is up the commission and parliament. However, the UK government proposed some fudged thing in their white paper where the ECJ is not the final and sole arbiter of the law, which would be required by the EU, but rather that the UK would take those judgements into consideration. Which in the end is simply not the same thing.
Denti is online now  
Old 2nd Aug 2018, 09:08
  #347 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7,072
Originally Posted by Denti View Post
Indeed, the EASA is just an agency of the EU, not in itself able to negotiate any membership, that is up the commission and parliament. However, the UK government proposed some fudged thing in their white paper where the ECJ is not the final and sole arbiter of the law, which would be required by the EU, but rather that the UK would take those judgements into consideration. Which in the end is simply not the same thing.
I'd like to try that argument in the Magistrates Court... "i'll take your sentence into consideration..."
Heathrow Harry is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2018, 10:21
  #348 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: FL410
Posts: 855
Originally Posted by BAengineer View Post
Your link doesnt mention Brexit, it only cites the pilot strikes in Dublin. If the cause were anything to do with Brexit what would be gained by moving aircraft from Dublin to Warsaw?
You are right, however it may indirectly have to do with Brexit, where flying rights may not be guaranteed anymore, bookings drop, and the airline prefers to use the UK-route aircraft in other markets, rather than having them sit idle at Dublin in future. How many aircraft does Ryanair use daily for its Dublin-UK flights?
Skyjob is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2018, 12:21
  #349 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: London/Fort Worth
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by Skyjob View Post
You are right, however it may indirectly have to do with Brexit, where flying rights may not be guaranteed anymore, bookings drop, and the airline prefers to use the UK-route aircraft in other markets, rather than having them sit idle at Dublin in future. How many aircraft does Ryanair use daily for its Dublin-UK flights?

Isnt that a bit of a reach considering that it was only last month that Ryanair announced they were creating a base at Southend from next year?. Far more likely that this is simply a bargaining (?) tactic by O'leary in his fight with the Pilots union.
BAengineer is offline  
Old 3rd Aug 2018, 18:24
  #350 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 836
Originally Posted by Denti View Post
UK government proposed some fudged thing in their white paper where the ECJ is not the final and sole arbiter of the law, which would be required by the EU, but rather that the UK would take those judgements into consideration. Which in the end is simply not the same thing.
Does sound awfully like the arrangement with Switzerland's EASA membership (and maybe other EFTAs - not sure) though doesn't it? Switzerland appears to have issues with ECJ jurisdiction.

Personally I think (and this applies to both sides) that what should be being asked for (at least at this stage) is things that already have precedent, ie. what other non-EU states already get or give. Once you've reached agreement in all the areas where there precedents, then you can move onto the areas where a full-custom-never-done-before solution would be required. Of course I'm not running things so both the sides have gone headlong into "full custom never done before" mode, and a pantomime where the EU says "tell us what you want", the UK says "we want X Y Z cake+eat+knobs-on" and the EU says "that's impossible, tell us what you want".

If, in terms of EASA, the UK did just ask for what the EU already gave someone else then that ought to be progress - the EU can no longer say "that is impossible" for a start. The EU can still say "**** off, you're not having that because we don't like you as much as X" or suck their cheeks in and say "well, that'll cost you...", or whatever, but at least we will have moved from the "impossible" to the negotiable.
infrequentflyer789 is offline  
Old 3rd Aug 2018, 19:16
  #351 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
Posts: 4,126
Originally Posted by infrequentflyer789 View Post
Does sound awfully like the arrangement with Switzerland's EASA membership (and maybe other EFTAs - not sure) though doesn't it? Switzerland appears to have issues with ECJ jurisdiction.
Indeed it does. However, in the end switzerland had to follow an ECJ ruling whereas the swiss final court ruled differently. In this case it was germany vs. switzerland concerning the overfly restrictions over germany for ZRH bound traffic. The result of not following the ECJ ruling would have been a complete withdrawal of all EU-Swiss agreements ending the single market access. However, the swiss still have the single market access including the four freedoms.

Originally Posted by infrequentflyer789 View Post
Personally I think (and this applies to both sides) that what should be being asked for (at least at this stage) is things that already have precedent, ie. what other non-EU states already get or give. Once you've reached agreement in all the areas where there precedents, then you can move onto the areas where a full-custom-never-done-before solution would be required. Of course I'm not running things so both the sides have gone headlong into "full custom never done before" mode, and a pantomime where the EU says "tell us what you want", the UK says "we want X Y Z cake+eat+knobs-on" and the EU says "that's impossible, tell us what you want".

If, in terms of EASA, the UK did just ask for what the EU already gave someone else then that ought to be progress - the EU can no longer say "that is impossible" for a start. The EU can still say "**** off, you're not having that because we don't like you as much as X" or suck their cheeks in and say "well, that'll cost you...", or whatever, but at least we will have moved from the "impossible" to the negotiable.
That is basically what Mr. Barnier has put out from the beginning on his famous slide where he has all the different kind of existing agreements and then the UK red lines that prevent using them leaving only the canada option and a border in the irish sea. Every existing option is there, although the EU really doesn’t like the swiss way as it is extremely cumbersome to renegotiate 140 or so agreements for every little change. However, the EU apparently does not want to add any extra cherry on top, because of course the existing agreement parties would then want the same.
Denti is online now  
Old 5th Aug 2018, 04:01
  #352 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1
Canary Islands

We've been thinking of booking a trip to Spain this year and I'm thinking if where in Canary we will go but I think is a good place to see like what I've read in this article
Rahul000 is offline  
Old 13th Aug 2018, 15:14
  #353 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: France
Posts: 106


Job advert for EZS, FYI
Airone2977 is offline  
Old 15th Aug 2018, 21:50
  #354 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: aaa
Posts: 137
Originally Posted by Airone2977 View Post


Job advert for EZS, FYI
Can you state where the above advert is from Airone2977?
Given the terrible grammar, nonsensical first sentence and all current vacancies listed on EZY website specifically state UK licences are accepted (including EU bases). I would bet good money on it being fake.
SpamCanDriver is offline  
Old 16th Aug 2018, 06:16
  #355 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Italy
Age: 31
Posts: 184
Originally Posted by SpamCanDriver View Post
Can you state where the above advert is from Airone2977?
Given the terrible grammar, nonsensical first sentence and all current vacancies listed on EZY website specifically state UK licences are accepted (including EU bases). I would bet good money on it being fake.
Directly from EZY careers website...

Link
bulldog89 is offline  
Old 16th Aug 2018, 09:15
  #356 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Darmstadt
Posts: 1
why not stay in EASA

Originally Posted by Bowmore View Post
Why could UK not be a member of EASA after Brexit? Norway, Iceland, Switzerland, Croatia are, and are not EU members.
To remain a member, the UK must recognize the authority of the European Court of Justice because that is the ultimate arbitration authority to EASA. The UK government does not want to accept ANY authority of the EJC, and will also no longer have any influence on the ECJ. Therefore, the UK government does not WANT to stay in EASA.

Norway and Switzerland etc do not have such a chip on their shoulder and accept ECJ, even without having a say in it. It's called pragmatism.
henno_b is offline  
Old 16th Aug 2018, 09:52
  #357 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: europe
Age: 34
Posts: 77
Apparently Easyjet is going to have its pilots based on the continent transfer their licences to either Germany or Austria.
Project fear; I fear not.
lear999wa is offline  
Old 16th Aug 2018, 10:53
  #358 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: somewhere
Posts: 357
Angry

Originally Posted by lear999wa View Post
Apparently Easyjet is going to have its pilots based on the continent transfer their licences to either Germany or Austria.
Given the farcical way the CAA is presently dealing even with the most ordinary task re. licensing, I guess that's the ONLY sensible thing to do. There is very little "Civil" left while the "Authority" has now become synonymous with chaos.

DK
drag king is offline  
Old 16th Aug 2018, 11:25
  #359 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Madrid
Posts: 153
Originally Posted by henno_b View Post
To remain a member, the UK must recognize the authority of the European Court of Justice because that is the ultimate arbitration authority to EASA. The UK government does not want to accept ANY authority of the EJC, and will also no longer have any influence on the ECJ. Therefore, the UK government does not WANT to stay in EASA.

Norway and Switzerland etc do not have such a chip on their shoulder and accept ECJ, even without having a say in it. It's called pragmatism.
The UK said in the "White Paper" that they actually WANT to stay in EASA.
I think it also said that they could accept the ECJ in this particular area (I'm not sure about this last one, please check the WP for clarification).

But of course, the EU is unlikely to accept the UK "cherry picking", and if they don't sign the withrawal agreement (with the North Ireland backstop, etc.) the likely outcome it's a no-deal with the UK being out of every EU agency. So if we don't see a change in the negotiations (by the way, they are sitting today but nothing new is expected), UK will be out of EASA by April 2019.
Perhaps the EU let's UK license holders transfer to an EASA countrie beyond this date, nobody knows.
superflanker is offline  
Old 16th Aug 2018, 12:41
  #360 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: London/Fort Worth
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by henno_b View Post
To remain a member, the UK must recognize the authority of the European Court of Justice because that is the ultimate arbitration authority to EASA. The UK government does not want to accept ANY authority of the EJC, and will also no longer have any influence on the ECJ. Therefore, the UK government does not WANT to stay in EASA.

Norway and Switzerland etc do not have such a chip on their shoulder and accept ECJ, even without having a say in it. It's called pragmatism.
How many times must it be repeated. The UK have requested to stay in EASA and changed their red line on ECJ jurisdiction to accommodate that request.

It is now up to the EU to decide whether they will allow the UK to remain or not.
BAengineer is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.