Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

EC notice on BREXIT issued, licenses/certificates invalid

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

EC notice on BREXIT issued, licenses/certificates invalid

Old 26th Jul 2018, 16:48
  #301 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: where I lay my hat
Posts: 106
The EU and its members would protect their national airlines and aviation companies and limit/prohibit competition from the UK
Well no, the bilaterals would be the same as before open skies started ie. they can nominate an airline for a route to the UK, (most likely the national airline), and the UK could do the same.
midnight cruiser is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2018, 17:32
  #302 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 1,494
Originally Posted by midnight cruiser View Post
Well no, the bilaterals would be the same as before open skies started ie. they can nominate an airline for a route to the UK, (most likely the national airline), and the UK could do the same.
But UK operators doing , say Lyon to Brussels to Cologne to Milan will become impossible, which there is a fair amount of now, or at least there was until this farce started.
Daysleeper is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2018, 18:21
  #303 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,835
Originally Posted by The Old Fat One View Post
Utter nonsense”..” Because if Heathrow had no income for two months, neither would any of the (European/UK) airlines flying in and out of Heathrow. And nobody on here - wherever they stand - would argue that many modern airlines could survive two months without income.”
Of course in the (hopefully unlikely) event of U.K./European flights being suspended on “Brexit Day” the likes of Air France, Lufthansana, Iberia, won’t be in the situation of having to survive for “two months without income”...

wiggy is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2018, 19:08
  #304 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: In the fast lane...MOVE OVER!!
Posts: 54
Originally Posted by BizJetJock View Post
Sorry, but that is complete nonsense.I suggest you speak to someone who can actually read the regulations.
NOT nonsense. Talking professional licences here.....

The holder of a Third Country (i.e ICAO...which of course, EASA isn't a member of..!) licence can no longer fly, N or ANY foreign registered aircraft, for reward, in the EU, if that aircraft is OPERATED from within the EU. So...if you have an N registered Global, based in London, operated by a company in Spain, then an FAA pilot CANNOT fly it for reward. However....neither can an EASA pilot, unless that pilot has an FAA ticket, because its outside the USA too....! BUT...WHICH licence do you fly it on? You fly on both...not possible....! The Fed's say you need an appropriate rating/currency etc in line with FAR/AIM and EASA (eeARSEerr) say you need part FCL as appropriate. Who is right? Well eeARSEer say it's illegal to use your FAA ticket....so do the FAA, say its wrong to use your eeARSEerr ticket. It was done, half cocked, with no real World validation process and NO argument for flight safety or similar. There is no real validation process that works either (unlike 2 reg or M reg for examples that accept both licences based on original being current/valid). Think about it...an FAA pilot says "I want to fly this N reg CJ2 out of London, for a private owner"...WHY oh WHYYYY can eeARSEerr not simply say "Here is a Part FCL based on your FAA ticket, medical and currency, to fly THAT specific aircraft for THAT specific purpose"?? If its private use, why not let them fly a G reg...or CS reg...or...or....???? It's simple, dumbass bureaucracy. And PLEASE, don't spout off about protecting European's jobs etc...as a lot of these guys ARE Europeans. AND...dont spout off about safety as there is no case and in fact, FAA ATP's CANNOT hold a so called "frozen" ATP...they have to have proper experience/hours...not 250 and have their hands held, or have a "Multi Crew" only licence, where they can't actually fly a piston or light plane, but can only operate a Sim as part of a crew.

So...to put it bluntly, all you guys that voted Brexit and are now bitching you might not have a licence....get over it. All you people that for years, sounded off about doing the exams (when a chunk didn't, but got Grandfather rights or sat a lot less stringent, poorly managed exams and validations), who are now in the same boat...grab a life jacket and a paddle...because you're possibly up the same creek as the FAA guys now and....the reigning point....it's a fu**ing disgrace for the UK issued EASA guys, the FAA guys and everyone in between. MAYBE there could actually be some camaraderie and a real proposal for a real and FAIR (Across the board!!) validation process!!!

As for Bilateral Safety Agreements...the engineers have had it for years...the pilots never have...and there isn't one forthcoming from either side of the pond. The whole situation, for all these pilots is FUBAR!
Triple Nickel 8 Ball is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2018, 19:29
  #305 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: London/Fort Worth
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by Daysleeper View Post
But UK operators doing , say Lyon to Brussels to Cologne to Milan will become impossible, which there is a fair amount of now, or at least there was until this farce started.
But what UK operators are there that do that. Ryanair are Irish and Easy can use their Austrian AOC.

I can't think of anyone else.
BAengineer is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2018, 21:32
  #306 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 42
Originally Posted by midnight cruiser View Post
Well no, the bilaterals would be the same as before open skies started ie. they can nominate an airline for a route to the UK, (most likely the national airline), and the UK could do the same.
I suggest you have a look at how a bilateral agreement worked before Open Skies, which took 10 years to negotiate. Our aviation industry is in a much better place now than it was before Open Skies. The risk is that benefits the UK aviation industry now enjoys will be lost. That includes the probability of jobs, of not just pilots, but all those that work in the industry.
101917 is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2018, 22:50
  #307 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: London/Fort Worth
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by 101917 View Post
I suggest you have a look at how a bilateral agreement worked before Open Skies, which took 10 years to negotiate. Our aviation industry is in a much better place now than it was before Open Skies. The risk is that benefits the UK aviation industry now enjoys will be lost. That includes the probability of jobs, of not just pilots, but all those that work in the industry.
Is it a better place though? Yes the increased competition has led to lower fares but it has also led to terms and conditions for those in the industry being screwed to the floor. Without Open Skies we wouldn't have companies like Ryanair and the subsequent reduction in wages and conditions. I doubt that many in the industry would claim it is better now than it was during the golden age of Bermuda 2.
BAengineer is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2018, 07:06
  #308 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 1,494
Originally Posted by BAengineer View Post
But what UK operators are there that do that. Ryanair are Irish and Easy can use their Austrian AOC.

I can't think of anyone else.
well DHL for one, Atlantic for two, Titan for three.

Easy’s Austrian AOC only came about because of this so to say they can use it is actually making my point. They’ve had to take costs and transfer assets out of the UK, which, when you think of all the other companies in all the other sectors, damages our economy and global influence.
Daysleeper is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2018, 09:00
  #309 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Scotland
Posts: 53
I believe Russia, China, Brasil and Canada have not signed up to the Chicago Convention and these countries continue to have complete control over which flights enter, or overfly, their territorial airspace. Given the current poor state of relations between the UK and Russian governments, will direct flights from UK airports to destinations in China, Japan and South Korea be banned by Russia when the UK ceases to be a EU member state? If so, it would have a severe impact on air freight as well as air passenger traffic. Sorry for the slight thread drift.
Avionista is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2018, 11:14
  #310 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Marlow (mostly)
Posts: 248
Originally Posted by Avionista View Post
I believe Russia, China, Brasil and Canada have not signed up to the Chicago Convention"
Suggest you do some basic research to anchor your beliefs in reality! Do you seriously think that e.g. Canada is not an ICAO state?
slast is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2018, 12:22
  #311 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Scotland
Posts: 53
As of the summer of 2007, 129 countries were parties to this treaty, including such large ones as the United States of America, India, and Australia. However, Brazil, Russia, Indonesia, and China never joined, and Canada left the treaty in 1988.[9] These large and strategically located non-IASTA-member states prefer to maintain tighter control over foreign airlines' overflight of their airspace, and negotiate transit agreements with other countries on a case-by-case basis.[3]:23
According to the Wikipedia quote above, Canada left the treaty in 1988, but my question was really about whether the UK's overflight rights over the territory of the Russian Federation would be affected by our leaving the EU next year.
Avionista is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2018, 20:49
  #312 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: No longer welcome status
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by BAengineer View Post
But what UK operators are there that do that. Ryanair are Irish and Easy can use their Austrian AOC.

I can't think of anyone else.
That all depends on the ownership structure because no doubt airlines will be pointing out that it really is a UK company using a foreign AOC but the airline
is ultimately being controlled by a UK majority owned company.
racedo is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2018, 20:52
  #313 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: No longer welcome status
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by Avionista View Post
If so, it would have a severe impact on air freight as well as air passenger traffic. Sorry for the slight thread drift.
Air freight will just go via EU countries and not come near the UK Hubs plus FRA / AMS / CDG will happily take SLF.
racedo is offline  
Old 28th Jul 2018, 07:41
  #314 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Costa del Thames
Posts: 510
I believe both TUI and TCUK do a fair bit of both intra-European and long haul on G-reg from European soil.
Brenoch is offline  
Old 30th Jul 2018, 06:05
  #315 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,516
I found this fairly low-level but seemingly neutral summary in the Irish Times. It basically summarises how I see it, so I would be interested if any of the posters on here with more expertise than me can point out any obvious factual inaccuracies in the article.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/c...exit-1.3578503

Note...not interested in brexit rhetoric...just neutral analysis.

Further, I'm given to understand that airlines are mitigating flight cancellation through brexit by adding it as force majeure clause on tickets...I wonder how that will play with the SLF once it becomes more widely know and the implications thereof become clearer??
The Old Fat One is offline  
Old 30th Jul 2018, 07:54
  #316 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: london
Posts: 716
The subheading of the article, in an Irish paper is

[QUOTE

When the UK leaves the EU and becomes a ‘third country’, it ceases to be part of the fully-liberalised EU aviation market

][/QUOTE]

you did say you werent interested in rhetoric.......
homonculus is offline  
Old 30th Jul 2018, 08:23
  #317 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,445
Originally Posted by homonculus View Post
The subheading of the article, in an Irish paper is

[h2]When the UK leaves the EU and becomes a ‘third country’, it ceases to be part of the fully-liberalised EU aviation market ]
you did say you werent interested in rhetoric.......
No, a 'third country' is simply a country not part of the EU:
The term ‘third country’ is used in the Treaties, where it means a country that is not a member of the Union. This meaning is derived from ‘third country’ in the sense of one not party to an agreement between two other countries. Even more generally, the term is used to denote a country other than two specific countries referred to, e.g. in the context of trade relations. This ambiguity is also compounded by the fact that the term is often incorrectly interpreted to mean ‘third-world country’.

https://www.eurofound.europa.eu/obse...ntry-nationals
cats_five is offline  
Old 30th Jul 2018, 08:31
  #318 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 42
Not rhetoric, it is an accurate headline.
101917 is offline  
Old 30th Jul 2018, 10:04
  #319 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,516
you did say you werent interested in rhetoric.......
I'm seriously not. Leaving aside whether or not this or any other newspaper headlines are ever factually perfect or completely sincere (interesting though that discussion might be) I was merely hoping if somebody with a better legal knowledge of the system could critique the article and indicate if it is reasonably accurate or whatever.

I'm still hoping.
The Old Fat One is offline  
Old 30th Jul 2018, 12:27
  #320 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: london
Posts: 716
If you look at the rest of the link and the other articles from this newspaper you will see that editorially it has a certain view on Brexit, as indeed do UK newspapers. Sadly so do most people posting here. Added to that few are conversant with law so the chance of getting an objective opinion is very small.
homonculus is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.