Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

EC notice on BREXIT issued, licenses/certificates invalid

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

EC notice on BREXIT issued, licenses/certificates invalid

Old 17th Jul 2018, 20:46
  #281 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: London/Fort Worth
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by highcirrus View Post
Hi Triple Nickel 8 Ball

Enjoyed your post, gave me a good chuckle. Just so we know, can you explain to us how "there won't be a monumental collapse", (presumably) after a hard brexit and UK becomes a Third Country and hence a Third Country Operator (TCO), suddenly not being an EASA member and unable to be party to the Open Skies Agreement at 23.00 hrs UTC on 29 March 2019? Just asking like.

As unlimited US access to LHR was the Jewel in the crown for the US Airlines in the Open Skies agreement I wouldn't bet against Trump pulling out of that agreement once the US lose that access through the UK no longer being part of the deal.

Then everyone is back to square one.
BAengineer is offline  
Old 18th Jul 2018, 02:30
  #282 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Brisvegas
Posts: 2,942
/But what do you do if you want to come back to the UK? Keep swapping licences? Or will the UK CAA allow you to keep two licences.
How can they stop you having more than one licence if they were properly issued?

Icarus2001 is offline  
Old 18th Jul 2018, 09:25
  #283 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: DORSET
Posts: 191
Originally Posted by silvertate View Post
But what do you do if you want to come back to the UK? Keep swapping licences? Or will the UK CAA allow you to keep two licences.

If the UK CAA don't get their act together, every airline in the UK may well migrate to Ireland, and all the aircraft, engineers and pilots will follow.
And then the UK CAA may well close their doors and disband.
But I get the impression that the UK CAA management are Europhiles, and would love to see the failure of the UK CAA, just to teach the Brexiteers a lesson.

ST
Has Ireland got the capacity? They will need massive expansion.
sharksandwich is offline  
Old 18th Jul 2018, 12:28
  #284 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 2
TN8 ball has a point. It's ironic that UK issued EASA pilot licences may no longer be valid next March. More recently it was FAA licenced pilots banned in Europe by EASA.

As the UK is becoming a third country its looking like FAA licences will be valid again, maybe they can provide some emergency crew cover when UK EASA licenced pilots are grounded.
vortexlift is offline  
Old 18th Jul 2018, 15:10
  #285 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 395
Originally Posted by highcirrus
Hi Triple Nickel 8 Ball

Enjoyed your post, gave me a good chuckle. Just so we know, can you explain to us how "there won't be a monumental collapse", (presumably) after a hard brexit and UK becomes a Third Country and hence a Third Country Operator (TCO), suddenly not being an EASA member and unable to be party to the Open Skies Agreement at 23.00 hrs UTC on 29 March 2019? Just asking like.
I forgot to mention, of course, the further woes for UK after a hard, no-deal brexit, in that membership of both the European Common Aviation Area, here and the Single European Sky, here would also lapse as UK became a Third Country, with no previously (re)negotiated deals to retain membership. Don't you just love the present "government"?
highcirrus is offline  
Old 18th Jul 2018, 15:57
  #286 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Under the clouds now
Age: 82
Posts: 2,189
Originally Posted by silvertate View Post
But what do you do if you want to come back to the UK? Keep swapping licences? Or will the UK CAA allow you to keep two licences.

If the UK CAA don't get their act together, every airline in the UK may well migrate to Ireland, and all the aircraft, engineers and pilots will follow.
And then the UK CAA may well close their doors and disband.
But I get the impression that the UK CAA management are Europhiles, and would love to see the failure of the UK CAA, just to teach the Brexiteers a lesson.

ST
Is there enough ramp space in Ireland?
brakedwell is offline  
Old 18th Jul 2018, 16:30
  #287 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
Posts: 4,127
Originally Posted by BAengineer View Post
As unlimited US access to LHR was the Jewel in the crown for the US Airlines in the Open Skies agreement I wouldn't bet against Trump pulling out of that agreement once the US lose that access through the UK no longer being part of the deal.

Then everyone is back to square one.
It might have been back then. However since then, US airlines have massively invested into point to point operation instead and nowadays serve pretty much every somewhat larger city in the EU directly. Which is enabled by the Open Skies agreement.
Denti is offline  
Old 18th Jul 2018, 17:51
  #288 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: europe
Posts: 5
Originally Posted by vortexlift View Post
More recently it was FAA licenced pilots banned in Europe by EASA.
When did that happen?
arketip is offline  
Old 18th Jul 2018, 21:28
  #289 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Brussels
Posts: 131
Originally Posted by Icarus2001 View Post
How can they stop you having more than one licence if they were properly issued?
You are not allowed more than one EASA licence.
So it depends upon how our CAA, and EASA, regard UK licences in a post-Brexit world.
In theory we should be able to hold a UK licence and an EASA licence - but the UK CAA are not exactly known for their desire to help pilots.

ST
silvertate is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2018, 01:04
  #290 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 395
Latest from the European Commission: "Preparing for the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union on 30 March 2019". Here.

Download: Seven Things Businesses In The EU27 Need To Know In order to prepare for Brexit. Here.

"If your activity relies on certificates, licenses or authorisations issued by UK authorities or by bodies based in the UK – or held by someone established in the UK – these may no longer be valid in the EU post-Brexit. You may need to transfer or seek new ones issued by an EU27-based body or authority. This is the case, in particular, for certificates, licenses and authorisations issued for goods (for example in the automotive sector, or the medical devices sector) and for services (for instance in the transport, broadcasting, or the financial sector). You should now take all the necessary steps to transfer certificates, licences or authorisations issued in the UK to the EU27, or obtain new ones."

Last edited by highcirrus; 20th Jul 2018 at 09:13.
highcirrus is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2018, 10:12
  #291 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Upper Gumtree
Posts: 733
And has the UK issued a similar statement to the EU27 countries?
Penny Washers is offline  
Old 20th Jul 2018, 11:38
  #292 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 2
Originally Posted by arketip View Post
When did that happen?
It happened about a year ago. EASA and the European Commission decided to ban FAA and other ICAO licensed pilots who are European Citizens from working in Europe. Despite the fact that for many of them they had already worked for years in this way with no issue.Careers were destroyed, jobs lost and many good pilots with families were instantly unemployable in all of Europe. If the public don't believe that EASA are capable of the same behaviour towards UK issued EASA pilot licenses and pilots then they are mistaken. Although it has to be said that there were many instances of gloating from UK EASA pilots when their non EASA licensed colleagues found themselves in the above situation, so it is now hugely ironic that they find themselves in the exact same situation. By the way in the above situation the UK CAA just let it happen, they blamed the DfT and when approached they wouldn't give any contact details of the responsible party at the DfT, as the above situation could have been avoided.
vortexlift is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2018, 04:06
  #293 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 395
From EU Referendum today

One of the most interesting moments of the Dominic Raab (aka midair bacon) interview with Andrew Marr yesterday was the line of questioning on the EU-US open skies agreement.

Marr specifically put to the Brexit secretary that: "with no deal we fall out of that", to which Raab said quite simply, "Yes". As a follow-up, Marr asked: "That does mean that the planes can’t carry on flying in at the moment doesn’t it?", to which Raab responded: "I think we would resolve that issue".

There we have it in blunt terms. Yes, a "no deal" Brexit would mean that UK airlines would lose their access to US skies. And while Raab blandly assures us that "we would resolve that issue", can we really be certain that President Trump would give us the access we want, immediately, and without asking for significant concessions elsewhere?
But had Marr been on the ball (something he's never been), he might also have asked about the US-EU bilateral agreement on safety in civil aviation – the so-called BASA. Even if the open skies agreement could be resolved, this is a far more complex issue, where there is no obvious or simple resolution.

And then, rather than confine his questioning to just the EU-US agreement, why didn't he ask about Varadkar's comments about the Single European Sky and the loss of access rights to the airspace of EU Member States?
As regards the aviation issue, Dominic Grieve has certainly "got it", arguing that "It wouldn't be possible, for example, for someone to fly to Rome because the overflying rights over the other countries of the EU are regulated by EU law".
References: EU-US Open Skies Agreement here. European Common Aviation Area here. Single European Sky here.
highcirrus is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2018, 11:37
  #294 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: If this is Tuesday, it must be?
Posts: 575
EASA and the European Commission decided to ban FAA and other ICAO licensed pilots who are European Citizens from working in Europe.
Sorry, but that is complete nonsense.I suggest you speak to someone who can actually read the regulations.
BizJetJock is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2018, 12:31
  #295 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Covid prison
Posts: 284
Anyone who thinks that anything significant will happen aviation-wise on March 29 next year is just a doom-monger. All will be resolved before then, as NEITHER side can afford a no-deal Brexit. Any ban on landing rights or overflight rights will penalise both sides just as much.
goeasy is offline  
Old 23rd Jul 2018, 15:39
  #296 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Away from home Rat
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by goeasy View Post
Anyone who thinks that anything significant will happen aviation-wise on March 29 next year is just a doom-monger. All will be resolved before then, as NEITHER side can afford a no-deal Brexit. Any ban on landing rights or overflight rights will penalise both sides just as much.
Your views are different to the people calling the shots. Are you another ex pat that was allowed to vote?
Alber Ratman is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2018, 01:28
  #297 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 395
UK CAA Planning assumptions for a non-negotiated exit

Source here.

Our (UK CAA) planning includes a scenario in which the UK Government and CAA take all reasonable steps within their control to reduce disruption to the aviation industry, but the EU does not agree to a mutual recognition arrangement.

The CAA encourages the aviation and aerospace industries, and individuals who rely on EU permissions to operate (to any extent), to consider what actions if any may be required on their part to enable them to continue to operate. This webpage explains the CAA’s own approach to EU exit preparedness, and does not constitute legal or commercial advice to industry.
To help organisations with their own planning for EU exit, we have listed the assumptions that we used to develop our approach for a potential non-negotiated withdrawal from the EU in March 2019.

These assumptions are not representative of the CAA’s view of the most likely, or desirable, outcome of negotiations and do not reflect Government policy, but allow us as a responsible regulator to prepare for all possible scenarios. In a non-negotiated outcome at March 2019, we have assumed that:
  • The UK leaves the EU at 11 pm on 29 March 2019.
  • Through the EU (Withdrawal) Act 2018, the UK adopts all European aviation laws at the point of exit. Changes will be made to ensure those laws are legally operable.
  • The UK continues to mirror EU aviation regulations for at least a two year period.
  • The UK withdraws completely from the EASA system in March 2019, meaning that the CAA will need to make arrangements to fulfil regulatory functions without having EASA as a technical agent and without having access to EASA and EU-level capabilities.
  • The UK is no longer included in EU-level Bilateral Aviation Safety Agreements.
  • There is no mutual recognition agreement between the EU and the UK for aviation licences, approvals and certificates.
  • UK-issued EASA licences and approvals are no longer recognised in the EU post-EU exit.
  • The EU treats UK airlines as Third Country Operators.
  • All licences issued by the CAA under EU legislation, and all type approval certificates and third country approvals issued by EASAunder EU legislation, will continue to have validity under UK law, if they were effective immediately before exit day.
  • The UK minimises additional requirements for licences, approvals and certificates from EU aviation and aerospace companies providing services and goods in the UK.
easyJet seem to be ahead of the game in "consider(ing) what actions if any may be required on their part to enable them to continue to operate".

Last edited by highcirrus; 25th Jul 2018 at 01:39.
highcirrus is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2018, 02:02
  #298 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 395
Maybe Heathrow's boss, John Holland-Kaye, has shaken off the "project fear" nonsense and is adopting a measure of realism. Financial Times (paywall) today:

Heathrow raises £1bn debt as it prepares for Brexit. Chief executive John Holland-Kaye say this was equivalent to two full years' funding.
"That gives us a level of financial resilience that means we're well protected in case of whatever worst-case scenario we can envisage (even though we expect) something close to continuity through a Brexit agreement. Our funding levels mean we are protected. Even if we have no income for two months, we would be financially safe."
I do hope that his optimism is not misplaced and will our "government" also get round to realistically considering the effect of post hard brexit LHR shutdown, or does the former Foreign Secretary's considered view, "f**k business" still hold sway?
highcirrus is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2018, 08:48
  #299 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,516
Even if we have no income for two months, we would be financially safe.
Utter nonsense. Nothing more than risibly simplistic corporate b/s. Why? Because if Heathrow had no income for two months, neither would any of the (European/UK) airlines flying in and out of Heathrow. And nobody on here - wherever they stand - would argue that many modern airlines could survive two months without income. So yeah, Heathrow might have the cashflow to survive two months, but at the end of that period, it would have a massively reduced customer base and much less income to recover with. Pretty much the sort of statement that CEOs make all the time...24 months ago Carillions Directors (and their auditors) were spouting this sort of guff. I am constantly amazed that people actually buy it.
The Old Fat One is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2018, 13:29
  #300 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Dubai / UAE
Posts: 63
Originally Posted by 101917 View Post
The disaster that is Brexit continues unabated and aviation is going to be no small part of it.

The UK aviation industry, which plays a major part in the economic success of the UK is posed to go one of two ways. Firstly, if the UK remains in EASA, albeit without the right to influence or vote on the ‘rules’ then it may well survive reasonably intact. However, in order for this to happen the UK Government and our aviation companies would be subject to the ECJ which is an anathema to the hard line, right wing Brexiteers as they want nothing to do with the ECJ.

If the UK aviation industry does not remain a member of EASA and is no longer a part of Open Skies, then any or all of the following could occur with unforeseen consequences for the industry.

• The UK retains sovereignty over its airspace and has no say in the EU’s airspace as is allowed now under EASA and open skies

• The UK would have very limited “freedoms” of the air

• Traffic rights would be given by bilateral agreements and not in line with open skies

• The EU and its members would protect their national airlines and aviation companies and limit/prohibit competition from the UK

• The EU would only allow the use of designated airports and not as occurs with open skies

• There could be single airline designation on certain routes from the UK

• There could be limited frequencies / capacity

• A requirement for double approval for fares between the UK and the EU

• A requirement for pooling agreements between airlines flying between the UK and the EU countries

• Prior to open skies most airlines were state-owned. It would be a tragedy if this ever returned.

None of the above would help the UK economy or consumer, including those who voted for Brexit.

It is no surprise that both easyJet and Thomas Cook are setting up headquarters in Europe. Other airlines are looking at ways of protecting themselves.

Finally, a sensible voice from the darkness. I have the inverse problem. I'm a UK CAA licence holder, working in EASA land. I've already had the indirect warning from the company to "kindly ask" an EASA member CAA to convert my UK ATPL licence to an equivalent EASA ATPL licence prior to Brexit, or I could lose my job... It's only a personal, entirely subjective view, and not intended for fuel to fire the for/against Brexit feud, but I feel that Brexit has to be one of the most ill conceived and ill executed policies from the UK in a long long time. Sigh.
SuperJet is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.