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'Plane crash' at Nepal's Kathmandu airport

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'Plane crash' at Nepal's Kathmandu airport

Old 17th Mar 2018, 13:26
  #181 (permalink)  
 
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I understand the first orbit, then as he comes out of it moving west, he is perhaps high and overshoots 20. But after that it is all descending left turn - seemingly over airport structures....Left seat should be well aware where he's ending up. Very strange.
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Old 17th Mar 2018, 13:42
  #182 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Smott999
The article makes it sound like that airport is known for stacking the arriving aircraft.
Non-radar and terrain. Lots of arrival holding patterns.
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Old 17th Mar 2018, 15:27
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I'm waiting for the FDR to discover why the straight in approach went wrong. One has to assume that they briefed the NPA thoroughly and put themselves in a position to commence it without confusion or rushing. Surely?
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Old 17th Mar 2018, 16:47
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I wouldn't really look too much into the positions as recorded on that sketch from witnesses and other accounts, these can be wildly inaccurate, although they give a good idea to what was happening and a rough idea of their positions they cannot be relied on for asking "why was the approach offset and right of track" etc

The Q4 flies very good FMS Overlays and would have some serious errors for it to be that far right of track

Agree with some other posters... i cannot comprehend how a Pilot who is a trainer with 5000, odd hours gets themselves into that mess and piles it in... not even into a mountain but into flat terrain... something very odd has happened here, terrible tragedy but could be a fascinating investigation

Originally Posted by RAT 5
I'm waiting for the FDR to discover why the straight in approach went wrong. One has to assume that they briefed the NPA thoroughly and put themselves in a position to commence it without confusion or rushing. Surely?
Wouldn't be the first time a crew has rushed a NPA and made a dogs dinner of it...admittedly its usually to do with the vertical profile but still anything is possible

Last edited by Livesinafield; 17th Mar 2018 at 16:48. Reason: adding quote
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Old 17th Mar 2018, 17:58
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If that is not a tired brain trying to pilot an airplane I do not what sleep is.

RIP.

Cheers,
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Old 17th Mar 2018, 19:42
  #186 (permalink)  
 
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Livesinafield :"The Q4 flies very good FMS Overlays and would have some serious errors for it to be that far right of track "

Up thread was a good description of the varying FMS configs in Q4....possible the Captain's side had inadvertently input 20 and missed in the brief?
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Old 18th Mar 2018, 06:03
  #187 (permalink)  
 
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Listening to the radio recordings ...in the first one the female controller says' confirm you are holding' this is a long way out ...the female co pilot replies no..

Wondering if they originally miscalculated the decent and were doing a quick orbit or two to loose height without informing ATC first? Then continuing on trying to get down on the correct profile.
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Old 18th Mar 2018, 13:15
  #188 (permalink)  
 
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'The US-Bangla crash was inevitable’

dhakatribune /bangladesh/2018/03/16/us-bangla-crash-inevitable/

The US-Bangla Airlines plane crash at Tribhuvan International Airport in Kathmandu, Nepal, which claimed at least 50 lives, was inevitable, according to a professional pilot.
The claim may sound outrageous, but the pilot, whose identity will not be revealed considering his job safety, told his colleague, another professional pilot, that this tragic accident was “just waiting to happen.”

Both the pilots work in the private sector.

The letter, a copy of which was obtained by the Dhaka Tribune, is printed verbatim below:

I’m so depressed and disturbed. This accident was just waiting to happen.

The safety culture or, truly speaking, the lack of it in private sector is simply outrageous!I know the pilots are forced to operate by their management in situations where it’s prudent not to fly. Routinely, schedule regularity and commercial considerations take precedence over flight safety.I’ve heard many harrowing stories from our First Officers who were in private sector before. Even if there are some exaggerations, if I consider only 25% of what they say is true, it is alarming!You are one of the senior most pilots and a pioneer. Please stand up. Once you told me that you haven’t learnt to say no. Please remember, brother, a Captain must know when to put his foot down and say “no” to the face of the management. We routinely observe private carriers shooting approaches well below minimum visibility, departing for a destination with very marginal weather or visibility, compromising on technical issues, flying without weather radar, forbidding pilots to give entry in the engineering log, especially at outstations as grounding would cost money! Money is more important than safety!!! OMG!It’s human lives that are at stake! This is what we pilots deal with every single day. It’s a sacred duty, not the glamorous job that the media portrays!I’ve often seen Biman or other foreign carriers holding for visibility to improve in winter, when US-Bangla or Regent not only commence approach, but landing!! I’ve heard private airlines pilots asking for “pilot’s discretion” start up when visibility in Saidpur or Jessore or Cox’s Bazar is 1,000 or 1,200 metres without improving trend!!! Non-precision approach airports!!!Brother, please, all pilots should realize the implications of our actions. If all are together, the management will not be able to exert pressure to depart with a bad weather approaching or with a technical issue or with less than minimum rest between flight duty periods. True, even with all precautions and safety, accidents can happen anytime, to anyone – even the most experienced crew – but that shouldn’t stop us from being conservative when it comes to safety.I heard Captain Abid Sultan had flown four sectors before going to an airport to Kathmandu. How outrageous! That, too, with a First Officer with barely two months’ experience! Biman doesn’t allow such inexperienced FO to fly to Cox’s Bazar, even!At the end of it all, the children of Captain Abid will never see their father again! Breaks my heart. It could be me, it could be you. Oh my! Sorry for the long message. Feeling extremely sad. Had to share.

Take care, brother. Fly safe. May Allah be with you and us all. All the crew of all airlines.”
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Old 18th Mar 2018, 13:24
  #189 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by camel
Listening to the radio recordings ...in the first one the female controller says' confirm you are holding' this is a long way out ...the female co pilot replies no..

Wondering if they originally miscalculated the decent and were doing a quick orbit or two to loose height without informing ATC first? Then continuing on trying to get down on the correct profile.
VNKT is not the place to be doing that.
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Old 18th Mar 2018, 19:15
  #190 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Smott999
Livesinafield :"The Q4 flies very good FMS Overlays and would have some serious errors for it to be that far right of track "

Up thread was a good description of the varying FMS configs in Q4....possible the Captain's side had inadvertently input 20 and missed in the brief?
Possible, thing is even if it was coded wrong in one fms it only follows the active side fms, each MFD has a selectable nav source so both pilots can be on FMS1 or both on FMS2 or respective sides each, they do not talk to each other.

Its possible to fly the approach with one FMS set for the approach in Miami and the other for the VOR DME in Katmandu, and as long as PF has his/her FMS set to the KTM approach all will be fine.

as mentioned earlier the FMS is very capable in the Q400 and it does a pretty good job, its a bit tricky navigating your way through the options and menus and all a bit out of place, but for anyone with some time on the dash it should be easy.

To be honest i don't see the issue here is with the initial approach, it appears approach was flown ok otherwise they would have probably hit a mountain, looks like it went pete tong after MDA and possibly misshandling of an "orbit" the Q400 is not really the kinda machine you want to be trying to fly low level orbits in, its a bit of a handful and cockpit visibility not the best.

Its a sad state of affairs, no pilot goes out to work intending to screw up but i guess sometimes mistakes happen and it all lines up and thats that.
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Old 19th Mar 2018, 00:32
  #191 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Livesinafield

Its possible to fly the approach with one FMS set for the approach in Miami and the other for the VOR DME in Katmandu, and as long as PF has his/her FMS set to the KTM approach all will be fine.
(
Some modern FMSes require the approach to be in sync.
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Old 19th Mar 2018, 00:40
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Originally Posted by aterpster
Some modern FMSes require the approach to be in sync.
Modern as in three decades ago right? E.g. the 757/767 and the A310/A306.
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Old 19th Mar 2018, 13:07
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Originally Posted by Airbubba
Modern as in three decades ago right? E.g. the 757/767 and the A310/A306.
I flew the pre-Pegagus 767. I don't remember whether the FMSes sync on approach because we didn't do RNAV approaches in those days. I flew the L1011 for three years after that, which tended to "bulk erase" the 767.
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Old 19th Mar 2018, 17:31
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FWIW i saw a video of S2-AGU and it has 2 FMS... as it happens i seriously doubt this had anything to do with the accident
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Old 19th Mar 2018, 20:06
  #195 (permalink)  
 
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It does seem they came in far enough off line to the east that ATC assumed they were on track for circle/land 20...
Wind from the west?
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Old 19th Mar 2018, 22:50
  #196 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by portmanteau
Using the correct phrases is paramount in ATC and dare I say it on the flight deck as well.
VFR refers to the rules of flight and VMC refers to the the weather conditions. There is no chance that one "may mean" the other. That's a red herring you are introducing.
It's not far off the question to propose such an error. ATC is in a non native language, stressful moment... Besides I've seen it being used that way in the aforementioned conditions. Plus I don't see any reason why to ask such a thing at that time.

As someone mentioned earlier, it would be interesting to see what happened with the first approach and why they seem to take a circle to land/visual traffic without telling anyone, as that would seem to be a key moment, everything else after that is just a cascading mess
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Old 20th Mar 2018, 00:44
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Originally Posted by Escape Path
It's not far off the question to propose such an error. ATC is in a non native language, stressful moment... Besides I've seen it being used that way in the aforementioned conditions. Plus I don't see any reason why to ask such a thing at that time.

As someone mentioned earlier, it would be interesting to see what happened with the first approach and why they seem to take a circle to land/visual traffic without telling anyone, as that would seem to be a key moment, everything else after that is just a cascading mess
It really boils down to "aviagate" "navigate" then "communicate."

The crew saw the airport from their perch, not anyone else. You simply do not circle to land unless the view of the airport and your position are within the parameters.
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Old 20th Mar 2018, 04:08
  #198 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aterpster
It really boils down to "aviagate" "navigate" then "communicate."

The crew saw the airport from their perch, not anyone else. You simply do not circle to land unless the view of the airport and your position are within the parameters.
You also do not 'circle to land' for one runway while cleared for another, then perform two 'orbits' (one on the short final path of the runway they weren't meant to be landing on, the other over the field and on the deck), do you?

Taking into consideration what actually happened, are you really confident in your pronouncement that the crew had all the boxes ticked prior to commencing their 'circle to land' maneuver?
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Old 20th Mar 2018, 06:14
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I have operated in a heavy around 60 times to VNKT.I have observed many highly experienced and quite well trained pilots make just about every type of error possible during these flights.My take on this accident, sadly is INEXPERIENCE plus CONFUSION equals DISASTER.The effect of language problems (english as a second language) most likely played a big part in this crash too.
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Old 20th Mar 2018, 08:23
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Taking into consideration what actually happened, are you really confident in your pronouncement that the crew had all the boxes ticked prior to commencing their 'circle to land' maneuver?

IMHO the question still remains why the screwed up the straight in approach. From various posts it is suggested that the 'circle' was commenced because they were too high for a straight in. If true, that is a huge error on vertical profile. How? If they were so far offset laterally after an autopilot flown approach, that is also a huge error. How? If both were true then one can only wonder WTF was going on. Personally I can't believe the latter where there was huge vertical & lateral error. The FDR + CVR will tell us.
Given the wind conditions I also can't believe that a turbo-prop crew would not plan for a straight in. The talk about FMS approaches: if the autopilot was following an FMC profile it should have been backed up with raw data monitoring; basic radial + DMA + altimeter. How they got themselves in such a pickle is the mystery.
I can't remember seeing the metar for their arrival. Usually someone posts it. I don't know how to do that from archives. Any chance, someone, please.
The facts should come to light quite quickly and all else is pure speculation.
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