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Luckily the dead engine wasn't dead after all.

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Luckily the dead engine wasn't dead after all.

Old 5th Feb 2019, 18:49
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Well you can usually go partway just by retarding throttles and observing the effects on each engine at a time. The only rush point would be if EGT was overlimits and did not respond to a throttle reduction.

But like every new report on this site, I wasn't there so I have no need to critizize
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Old 5th Feb 2019, 23:33
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Old Fella View Post
This is a classic example of where a little knowledge is very dangerous. If "rottenray" really believes that the Kegworth was almost understandable, based on the flawed understanding of the pneumatic system by the pilots, then I think he is sadly mistaken. Kegworth need not have happened. Time taken to properly identify the defective engine, based on the indications presented, would/should have prevented the Kegworth accident.
Spot on!! A case of a little knowledge is dangerous.
Have I missed the post (with all these wonderful ways of determining a failed engine) of "Dead foot, dead engine" ??
Tootle pip!!
PS: I have read the Kegworth report, (and I used to work for BMA) and I do know that other actions disguised/didn't help the proper identification of the failed engine.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 06:03
  #23 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Old Fella View Post
This is a classic example of where a little knowledge is very dangerous. If "rottenray" really believes that the Kegworth was almost understandable, based on the flawed understanding of the pneumatic system by the pilots, then I think he is sadly mistaken. Kegworth need not have happened. Time taken to properly identify the defective engine, based on the indications presented, would/should have prevented the Kegworth accident.
Kegworth was down to many factors supporting the pilot's bias, not least, inadequate training by their employer.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 08:36
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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[color=left=#000000]For the next generation of pilots[/color]
For the next generation of rules and aircraft it may be wort rethinking the auto-rudder-trim vs. dead foot - dead engine philosophy...
Nothing is as clear to understand as tactile indications.
Maybe some remaining mis-trim (low enough to prevent loss of control, high enough to be clearly felt by the pilot) or artificial feel might be the way to go ?

Or having a "throtlle shaker" which makes the power lever vibrate with the vibration indication? (Healthy engine lever feels fine, failed engine lever vibrates)

There is a lot aircraft designers could do to support pilots, which due to their human nature do make mistakes, even more if you automate many items and take the pilot out of the loop.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 12:49
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Volume View Post
For the next generation of rules and aircraft it may be wort rethinking the auto-rudder-trim vs. dead foot - dead engine philosophy...
Nothing is as clear to understand as tactile indications.
Maybe some remaining mis-trim (low enough to prevent loss of control, high enough to be clearly felt by the pilot) or artificial feel might be the way to go ?

Or having a "throtlle shaker" which makes the power lever vibrate with the vibration indication? (Healthy engine lever feels fine, failed engine lever vibrates)

There is a lot aircraft designers could do to support pilots, which due to their human nature do make mistakes, even more if you automate many items and take the pilot out of the loop.
I like your idea, but this manufacturer isn't big on tactile feedback.

I'm just puzzled why they set the operating engine to idle in the attempt to restart the good engine.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 14:34
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Volume View Post
Or having a "throtlle shaker" which makes the power lever vibrate with the vibration indication? (Healthy engine lever feels fine, failed engine lever vibrates)
.
I like the sound of a throttle shaker to indicate which engine has high vibs. Mobile phones have a vibrate mode, so there are small and robust mechanisms out there. It doesn't sound like the biggest job in the world to incorporate something similar into a throttle lever.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 14:56
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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When things go south, wind the clock! Not to mention at every airline I know moving a critical switch requires both pilots confirm the action.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 16:17
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sailvi767 View Post
When things go south, wind the clock! Not to mention at every airline I know moving a critical switch requires both pilots confirm the action.

That didn't even come into the picture in the Sim where one engine caught fire on takeoff and after firing both bottles the PNF ran the checklist and at the end the checklist called to switch off the affected engine so the PNF reached for the switch and as he did so the PF let out a yell but it was too late and a glider we became at 2k feet. It seems that the challenge action at the front of a drill works OK by rote but when the action.is called for a minute or two later it didn't have a challenge
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 17:04
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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From aviation herald

"was in the takeoff roll at about 115 KIAS out of Delhi's runway 09 when a bird struck the right hand engine (CFM56) causing vibrations and abnormal sounds. The crew continued takeoff"

115 KIAS and they continued, is that not way below V1 with 158 pax on board?
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 17:13
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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I like the sound of a throttle shaker to indicate which engine has high vibs
Not what I want when I have a double birdstrike and I am trying to fly a crippled aircraft round the circuit!

I think we would be better to ensure we put people into the flight deck with better non-technical skills and who can read a basic instrument display. Compared to some of the old steam driven engine instrument displays the Airbus is a doddle.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 19:04
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Council Van View Post
115 KIAS and they continued, is that not way below V1 with 158 pax on board?
From DGAC: Final Investigation Report on Air Turn Back Incident due to Bird Strike to Go Airlines (India) Ltd Airbus A320-214 Aircraft VT-GOS On 21/06/2017 at Delhi:

During take-off roll on Runway 09 at around 115 knots IAS, aircraft encountered bird strike on Engine # 2. Both crew noticed abnormal sound and vibrations but PIC decided to continue for take-off probably wanting to investigate the problem after getting airborne.

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Old 6th Feb 2019, 19:37
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by threep View Post
I like the sound of a throttle shaker to indicate which engine has high vibs. Mobile phones have a vibrate mode, so there are small and robust mechanisms out there. It doesn't sound like the biggest job in the world to incorporate something similar into a throttle lever.
Difficult maybe with just two throttle levers when there is an engine vibration and a lot else going on.
Four throttle levers.... Eeny, meeny, miny, moe that one's vibrating let it go. Not viable!
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 19:48
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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This hasn't been mentioned. No excuse but also shows this wasn't a beautiful smooth day like we often practice in the sim..

As per the occurrence report, the weather, after take-off, was very turbulent and the autopilot was not holding. Autopilot was disengaged at 05:41:50 hrs and several times from 05:45:43 hrs to 05:46:44 hrs.
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Old 6th Feb 2019, 23:17
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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A terrible display of poor airmanship. Especially the alpha floor part. Lucky they were in a bus forcing alpha floor protection on them, kept them from becoming another statistic. It is astounding who all is issued with a license to be up front these days. Training standards?
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Old 7th Feb 2019, 08:43
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Volume
Or having a "throtlle shaker" which makes the power lever vibrate with the vibration indication? (Healthy engine lever feels fine, failed engine lever vibrates)
Good idea. But not a shaker, just put red/amber rings on the edge of each throttle handle that can light up as a master warning/caution for the corresponding engine.

Airbus tried hard to do the right thing, putting all the indications for the left engine in the left column and those for the right engine in the right column. Nevertheless the FO got confused, and page 37 in the report is a good illustration of what he thought he saw and why.

I'm surprised that among the recommendations in the report there is none for Airbus to improve that part of the engine display. One could easily give the text column a better symmetry by putting the "VIB" above the N1/N2 rather than next to it. And, like zahnpastaesser said, maybe the terms N1/N2 should better be avoided in this context. LP/HP or FAN/CORE would be obvious alternatives.
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Old 8th Feb 2019, 18:31
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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I am still surprised that, under normal conditions, but particularly after suffering an engine failure, there is no operating engine(s) proving check, at a safe height above the ground, just as you would check your response to flight controls had any control malfunction occurred. While this would not have helped in this case, it certainly would in others, perhaps Kegworth, or the BA777 at LHR. It may be too late if you leave it until approach checks. Or perhaps there is such a check nowadays?
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Old 8th Feb 2019, 19:26
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Shackeng View Post
While this would not have helped in this case, it certainly would in others, perhaps Kegworth, or the BA777 at LHR.
I don't think (in)ability to identify a failed engine was a factor in the BA38 accident.
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Old 8th Feb 2019, 20:19
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by noske View Post
Airbus tried hard to do the right thing, putting all the indications for the left engine in the left column and those for the right engine in the right column. Nevertheless the FO got confused, and page 37 in the report is a good illustration of what he thought he saw and why.

I'm surprised that among the recommendations in the report there is none for Airbus to improve that part of the engine display. One could easily give the text column a better symmetry by putting the "VIB" above the N1/N2 rather than next to it. And, like zahnpastaesser said, maybe the terms N1/N2 should better be avoided in this context. LP/HP or FAN/CORE would be obvious alternatives.
Of course when seeing the display it makes "sense" why the FO confused this in times of high stress. Its a terrible design. Speaking generally - I have noticed the smartphone generation coming through in many industries have a default expectation of visual intuition... software displays today are designed in a specific and logical way, placing a legacy or non-standard display to younger generation reaps confusion in unpredictable ways

The bus gauge is awfully designed. However, when you fly the thing day in and day out there is an expectation you understand it!

Last edited by smala01; 9th Feb 2019 at 13:03.
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Old 8th Feb 2019, 22:20
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Nope it is not an awful design, but someone found a way to misunderstand it. Many, many, many pilots don’t have a problem with the Airbus instrument design but if you keep putting the lowest common denominators into the flight deck you will find someone who does.
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 08:54
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
I don't think (in)ability to identify a failed engine was a factor in the BA38 accident.
True, but my point was that in all conditions, failure or not, proving engines with height beneath before approach makes sense to me.

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