SQ-368 (engine & wing on fire) final report out
On the face of it & having viewed the video (Jabawocky post), surely one could safely conclude, this was a major stuff up by SQ & could so easily have resulted in numerous fatalities. I agree, there would have been risks in evacuating, there always are of course & injuries or worse may well have occurred, but to me, keeping the pax & crew on the aircraft in this instance, could so easily & so very quickly, have ended up a disaster.
No axe to grind at all & I still include SQ among my airlines of choice, but this was a very poor show by them & still no open & in depth announcements from them.
Not my own view in particular folks, but, In a case such as this, law suits in Singapore of course would not work, but how about in the US, against both the Company & also the Captain, for needless endangerment of the pax??
Any thoughts from the many legal experts out there.
No axe to grind at all & I still include SQ among my airlines of choice, but this was a very poor show by them & still no open & in depth announcements from them.
Not my own view in particular folks, but, In a case such as this, law suits in Singapore of course would not work, but how about in the US, against both the Company & also the Captain, for needless endangerment of the pax??
Any thoughts from the many legal experts out there.
Last edited by kaikohe76; 6th Jul 2016 at 08:39.
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On the face of it & having viewed the video (Jabawocky post), surely one could safely conclude, this was a major stuff up by SQ & could so easily have resulted in numerous fatalities. I agree, there would have been risks in evacuating, there always are of course & injuries or worse may well have occurred, but to me, keeping the pax & crew on the aircraft in this instance, could so easily & so very quickly, have ended up a disaster.
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The real danger is. if there is another incident similar to this one, in SQ or elsewhere, crew might decide not to evacuate based on this incident, and end up roasting all passengers. In this incident the crew judgement was correct or luck was on their side. In fire incidents on landing or take off, (Of which there are several every year), the recommended and safe action is always evacuate first. I am sure airlines will closely review this incident advise crew the correct action.
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BugSmasher
Fair comment & I understand the points you make. I would agree, that if we had more information as to what actually happened, was an evacuation considered by the F/D & Crew & in particular, why was it not carried out in this incident? Such information I suppose is very unlikely to be forthcoming from most airlines & in particular a major world operator like SQ. Until such information is made known to the general public, most of us I think, will be highly suspicious to say the least. Where as, had SQ taken the bold option to go public, many potential pax may well be reassured & understand the actions of the Crew.
Fair comment & I understand the points you make. I would agree, that if we had more information as to what actually happened, was an evacuation considered by the F/D & Crew & in particular, why was it not carried out in this incident? Such information I suppose is very unlikely to be forthcoming from most airlines & in particular a major world operator like SQ. Until such information is made known to the general public, most of us I think, will be highly suspicious to say the least. Where as, had SQ taken the bold option to go public, many potential pax may well be reassured & understand the actions of the Crew.
The real danger is. if there is another incident similar to this one, in SQ or elsewhere, crew might decide not to evacuate based on this incident, and end up roasting all passengers. In this incident the crew judgement was correct or luck was on their side. In fire incidents on landing or take off, (Of which there are several every year), the recommended and safe action is always evacuate first. I am sure airlines will closely review this incident advise crew the correct action.
At the start of Jabawocky's video (#482) there's fire outside but not inside. By the end (only 1:26) the fire outside seems to have been suppressed. A CC member can be seen sensibly preventing panicing pax from opening a door on the side where the fire was. What does the video prove?
At the start of Jabawocky's video (#482) there's fire outside but not inside. By the end (only 1:26) the fire outside seems to have been suppressed. A CC member can be seen sensibly preventing panicing pax from opening a door on the side where the fire was. What does the video prove?
This thread is not developing but rather just rehashing the same subjective opinions about the same videos reposted over and over.
Sure the decision process is in question, but key facts are not as yet offered by the authorities in Singapore.
I wonder why is it that we the uninformed always seem to offer conclusions so early in an investigation?
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Why some are questioning so early in the investigation?
1) Fire evacuation is a no brainer decision
2) Too many gaffes with boat load of luck
3) City Nation CAA's don't have reputation of conducting a fair investigation
4) Too many folks praising the decision, somehow that is acceptable
In earlier cases fire rescue helped crew with which slides can be open while they kept the fire under control during evacuation. Even without outside help crew should be able to decide which slides can be used.
This may be the first time pax were forced to stay. Unique indeed.
1) Fire evacuation is a no brainer decision
2) Too many gaffes with boat load of luck
3) City Nation CAA's don't have reputation of conducting a fair investigation
4) Too many folks praising the decision, somehow that is acceptable
In earlier cases fire rescue helped crew with which slides can be open while they kept the fire under control during evacuation. Even without outside help crew should be able to decide which slides can be used.
This may be the first time pax were forced to stay. Unique indeed.
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Sorry, I don't agree we need more info...
Welcome to the age of mobile phones with video cameras, and the internet, ladies and gentlemen.
I for one need no more facts to decide that the flight crew screwed up on this one. The screamingly obvious is staring us in the face...
The silence from SQ is equally as obvious. They are also aware the captain made a bad call. So staying stumm. I hope he has a good pension plan.
I feel sorry for him. Evac evac would be a blameless call. The wing was on fire after all. But...
The real issue here is about Singapore culture, and at the heart, the education system. They pat themselves on the back for getting some of the best exam results in Asia.. But this is achieved through rote learning and following the model answer. None of them are encouraged to think for themselves. They tend to rely on others.
****, the wing is on fire. But help is on its way. Let's trust in them... Luckily it turned out well. But probably not for the poor captain.
I for one need no more facts to decide that the flight crew screwed up on this one. The screamingly obvious is staring us in the face...
The silence from SQ is equally as obvious. They are also aware the captain made a bad call. So staying stumm. I hope he has a good pension plan.
I feel sorry for him. Evac evac would be a blameless call. The wing was on fire after all. But...
The real issue here is about Singapore culture, and at the heart, the education system. They pat themselves on the back for getting some of the best exam results in Asia.. But this is achieved through rote learning and following the model answer. None of them are encouraged to think for themselves. They tend to rely on others.
****, the wing is on fire. But help is on its way. Let's trust in them... Luckily it turned out well. But probably not for the poor captain.
Ok then I see your point but it will be the same culture that conducts the investigation and then acts. So if the CN made that decision after years of training in that organization then there is a good chance the boss will think the same way.....
"None of them are encouraged to think for themselves."
Having spent several years flying for a Singaporean airline, I gotta say, I suspect this could come into play.
It MAY have been a calculated decision made by a skipper who sought all information from all sources and made a sound command decision for the benefit of all crew, pax,cargo and plane.
HOWEVER..............
Having spent several years flying for a Singaporean airline, I gotta say, I suspect this could come into play.
It MAY have been a calculated decision made by a skipper who sought all information from all sources and made a sound command decision for the benefit of all crew, pax,cargo and plane.
HOWEVER..............
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Asiana precedent
Since the fire truck ran over pax in SFO... it seems some people think it may be safer to keep pax in a burning plane than risk getting run over by a fire truck. Doh!
If not, what's the relevance?
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I for one need no more facts to decide that the flight crew screwed up on this one. The screamingly obvious is staring us in the face...
I feel sorry for him [the captain]. Evac evac would be a blameless call. The wing was on fire after all. But...
The real issue here is about Singapore culture, and at the heart, the education system. They pat themselves on the back for getting some of the best exam results in Asia.. But this is achieved through rote learning and following the model answer. None of them are encouraged to think for themselves. They tend to rely on others.
I feel sorry for him [the captain]. Evac evac would be a blameless call. The wing was on fire after all. But...
The real issue here is about Singapore culture, and at the heart, the education system. They pat themselves on the back for getting some of the best exam results in Asia.. But this is achieved through rote learning and following the model answer. None of them are encouraged to think for themselves. They tend to rely on others.
I wonder what would happen if the captain turns out to be a Caucasian with an Anglo/American upbringing?
I think it could be possible, the event happened at 6:50am. That is just before sunrise at around 7am at this time of the year. So it is not very bright and passengers normally do not wear high-vis clothes when they travel by plane.
Last edited by cee cee; 7th Jul 2016 at 12:22.
Am I the only one who sees the irony of this post?
If it had been an all white Western crew, no one would be talking about 'cultural' issues amongst the ... ahem ... 'other' people.
It's both a little sad and a little sickening, but hey, who cares? It's not as though we're dissing Europeans or Americans, is it? The're like ... you know ... Asians (maybe, assumes facts not yet in evidence, but hey, it's a rumour blog)
“If it had been an all white Western crew, no one would be talking about 'cultural' issues”
Maybe not, but they should be.
Culture affects everything we do from our gait when we walk to the different reasons we crash planes.
Should we discuss how western culture has been the cause of several western-crewed airliners to crash recently?
Or should we discuss that cultural issue on the thread associated with that crash.
Culture plays a big part in what motivates our decision-making and inaction is often viewed as the path of least resistance, often the result of a (company maybe???)blame culture.
Maybe not, but they should be.
Culture affects everything we do from our gait when we walk to the different reasons we crash planes.
Should we discuss how western culture has been the cause of several western-crewed airliners to crash recently?
Or should we discuss that cultural issue on the thread associated with that crash.
Culture plays a big part in what motivates our decision-making and inaction is often viewed as the path of least resistance, often the result of a (company maybe???)blame culture.
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It is also possible that the reason for the non-evacuation by slide was not due to cultural factors.
It may be quite difficult to assess the severity of an under wing fire from the cockpit, quickly. The British Airtours case suggests this. Yes the 777 has cameras but when a camera serves up an unbelievable image our instinct is not to believe it but to doubt the camera.
The cabin crew may see the fire, but it may not be visible from all cabin crew stations. It may not have been visible from the CP's position. There is another point, too - cabin crew members are taught not to create alarm and despondency in the passengers - yelling "THERE'S A HUGE FIRE ON THE STARBOARD WING!" into a phone goes against this training, but the time needed to quietly inform the cockpit crew, eg by sidling up to the CP and leaving the CP to make the call and inform the cockpit, in a discreet and non pax-scaring manner, that the starboard wing is ablaze from root to tip, will be rather longer...
I'm not a pilot, but "Willit Run", who is, makes this point at post 19 on this thread...
It may be quite difficult to assess the severity of an under wing fire from the cockpit, quickly. The British Airtours case suggests this. Yes the 777 has cameras but when a camera serves up an unbelievable image our instinct is not to believe it but to doubt the camera.
The cabin crew may see the fire, but it may not be visible from all cabin crew stations. It may not have been visible from the CP's position. There is another point, too - cabin crew members are taught not to create alarm and despondency in the passengers - yelling "THERE'S A HUGE FIRE ON THE STARBOARD WING!" into a phone goes against this training, but the time needed to quietly inform the cockpit crew, eg by sidling up to the CP and leaving the CP to make the call and inform the cockpit, in a discreet and non pax-scaring manner, that the starboard wing is ablaze from root to tip, will be rather longer...
I'm not a pilot, but "Willit Run", who is, makes this point at post 19 on this thread...
Last edited by Methersgate; 7th Jul 2016 at 15:23.
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If it had been an all white Western crew, no one would be talking about 'cultural' issues amongst the ... ahem ... 'other' people.
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Perfect, now with the culture card played no one comment here. Is slow driving of Oshkosh Strikers also related???
BTT
SAAIB one page SQ836 interim report after one full year investigation had less information than what French BEA and Airbus said 20 days after incident. Interesting, isn't it.
AFAIK SFO ARFF didn't rundown a walking passenger, teenager was laying down on the ground and initially one fire rescue member was guarding her, but she was covered with foam and was ran over twice. SFO ARFF owned its mistakes.
BTT
SAAIB one page SQ836 interim report after one full year investigation had less information than what French BEA and Airbus said 20 days after incident. Interesting, isn't it.
AFAIK SFO ARFF didn't rundown a walking passenger, teenager was laying down on the ground and initially one fire rescue member was guarding her, but she was covered with foam and was ran over twice. SFO ARFF owned its mistakes.