Emirates B777 gear collapse @ DXB?

[underfire]

ahhh, there you go, just the answer I expected from you.

A simple question..on final, do you confgure for the winds provided by ATC, or what you see on the ND?

Very simple answer required.

(winds are provided at 10m, but you are over the TCH at 15?)

[Datum]

Wind has been measured in 3 Dimensions; u,v and w axis for many many years..

Vertical Windshear is very real and CLEARLY existed at Dubai at the time of arrival for Emirates 521..on 3 Aug 16..

Building Induced Windshear (obstacle induced windshear, whether man made or natural) is very real..

Climate Change is very real..

Science and Technology in almost every discipline is developing at an unprecedented rate.. The technology is available Commercial Off the Shelf (COTS) to measure the three wind components (u,v,w) which would further assist in the more accurate forecasting, and reporting of all types of wind event; including windshear, microbursts, turbulence etc..

The capabilities of modern AWS/ASOS (read ultrasonic wind sensors) FAR EXCEED outdated wind anemometers (old cup type anemometers)..

The siting of AWS/ASOS is absolutely critical to the integrity and workability of the important parameters they develop..

If 'averaging' or 'blended solutions' are used at certain airfields, then this MUST be clearly promulgated, so OPERATIONAL PILOTS are aware..

The cost of these systems is NEGLIGBLE when compared to the total cost of a hull loss..

IMHO.. These issues may/may not be responsible for this accident.. However, that doesn't mean the AIT should not examine these issues as part of their investigative process.. Valuable lessons for all airport operators globally, air traffic controllers and airline pilots have already been highlighted by this particular accident.. Individuals and organisations (be they airlines, regulators, pilots and/or airport operators) should be able to examine an accident such as this, with the advantage of hindsight, and review their equipment, procedures and processes in order to prevent this happening to them..prior to any final report being published for all to see..

[ruserious]

Dangerous to be so confident you are correct without fully investigating and/or understanding what I'm suggesting..

Well I guess 25 years of landing in Dubai gives me some qualification on understanding it's meteorological challenges. @Datum, this is obviously your pet subject, really think you should find a new horse to flog

[Capn Bloggs]

A simple question..on final, do you confgure for the winds provided by ATC, or what you see on the ND?

Let me consult with my erstwhile colleague Megan on that. I'll also check the FCOM. Will let you know via SMS after we do the approach brief.

However, that doesn't mean the AIT should not examine these issues as part of their investigative process..

No. I have noticed an increased propensity in some accident reports for rabbiting-on about issues which have nothing to do with the investigated accident. Every professional pilot knows of myriad threats that could cause a prang... there is no need, however, to waste valuable time and effort putting those into a report if they had no bearing on the accident.

[Big Enos Burdette]

Can you all continue this anemometer circle-jerk on its own thread, please.

[CONSO]

Originally Posted by Big Enos Burdette

Can you all continue this anemometer circle-jerk on its own thread, please.

AMEN AMEN AMEN !!!!

[Datum]

Capn Bloggs

You part of the AIT into Emirates 521..?.. You clearly know more than we do!..

Environmental Conditions will almost certainly be found to be a contributing factor to this event..

The mature approach would be to investigate first, once the facts are known..then draw conclusions..

I've heard many Approach Briefs in my career that FAIL to outline the issues of significance..

Good luck to you and your crew.. Must be reassuring for you to always have the answers..

[underfire]

Can you all continue this anemometer circle-jerk on its own thread, please.

The dialog was important to illustrate the foundations of winds at the airports, and pilots understanding of this foundation. As shown by example, ie Perth, TCH winds are but an estimate, and many times, not a good one.

Well I guess 25 years of landing in Dubai gives me some qualification on understanding it's meteorological challenges

and that is very, very valid...what do you think of the reported winds, and the actual winds experienced on final?

IF there was a way to identify the winds aloft, at very distinct levels on final, would this be of value? What if you were to input the real time winds on final to the FMS, would this be of value? (as a side note, some operators already have this function, such as SW, and it works very, very well)

Dubai has what, sometimes 3 to 4 GA per week? This includes A380, and now a B777 total loss.
How many wake encounters? What if you could identify and report these winds?

The point is that the winds as provided by the regulations are not sufficient in all locations.

The capabilities of modern AWS/ASOS (read ultrasonic wind sensors) FAR EXCEED outdated wind anemometers (old cup type anemometers)..

Datum. There are very, very few ultrasonic systems in place. Even if there were, there is NO benefit to 3D winds at 10m, NONE.

[CONSO]

" The mature approach would be to investigate first, once the facts are known..then draw conclusions."
YEP- good advice- so why not follow it ??

[Datum]

Because the issue of AWS/ASOS siting, the type of equipment used (obsolete measuring devices) and the propensity for Airport (property) developers to use wind statistics that support their view of the world..in order to maximise income/profit from their respective Aviation (terminals, hangars) and Non-Aviation (car parks, offices) infrastructure..is by no means an isolated issue..

That's why..

[Datum]

Originally Posted by underfire

Datum. There are very, very few ultrasonic systems in place. Even if there were, there is NO benefit to 3D winds at 10m, NONE.

Yep.. Exactly. Maybe that needs to CHANGE..

You're obviously no expert in wind.. Ever heard of 'embedded turbulence' downwind of obstacles.. Suggest you read up on the latest expert opinion on obstacle induced turbulence and how this phenomena might be measured.. Any improvement to the way in which Wind, Windshear and Turbulence is measured and presented to the range of stakeholders including; planners, architects, airport engineers, pilots and ATC has got to be a positive thing?..

[underfire]

You're obviously no expert in wind.. Ever heard of 'embedded turbulence' downwind of obstacles.

You got that from the information provided? 3D information at 10m, with the near surface turbulence, would have some value?

Perhaps you should consider that there is a myriad of components to this analysis, that are virtually statically indeterminate due to the variables?

Any improvement to the way in which Wind, Windshear and Turbulence is measured and presented to the range of stakeholders including; planners, architects, airport engineers, pilots and ATC has got to be a positive thing?.

All for naught. The surrounding structures are not mandated to comply with anything other than lighting. Would you feel better if the airflow was locally funneled or displaced? Multiple structures and the influence of the combination given specific wind direction? Where does the influence begin or end?

[glofish]

What if you were to input the real time winds on final to the FMS, would this be of value?

Guys, come out of your overautomated orbit and get back to earth, please. What in the world would a input into the FMS help when pilots forget to shove up the levers????

Winds have been around since Lilienthal took off with his glider.

All wind readers, shear detectors and so forth are nice to have and of great help.
But to focus on them is spinning the root cause of the accident.

If pilots can't handle circumstances as they were present that day, by either stabilised approaches, successful landings or go-arounds, then Houston has a problem.
And that's the one that has to be focused on and fixed.

[Datum]

underfire

Mate... I've been looking into this for years.. This is a SIGNIFICANT issue for multiple major airports..globally.. Operators and Airlines need to wake up... It is not the Airport Operators / Property Developers that wear the ADDITIONAL COSTS associated with the numerous diversions, missed approaches and/or the inevitable incident or accident..attributable to outdated wind reporting or inadequate/poor building design..

Development and take up of new technology and the replacement of obsolete systems is not for NAUGHT!..

That's the reality of change and advancement in a technically complicated space..like AVIATION. Developments MUST be fully investigated and tested prior to their approval.. Anything less IMHO is NEGLIGENT..

[Capn Bloggs]

Didn't realise flying was so difficult...

[Big Enos Burdette]

Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs

Didn't realise flying was so difficult...

Neither did I.
Obviously much more difficult in certain parts of the world,....mate.

[Datum]

FLYING IS NOT DIFFICULT... It's just all the other vested interests that complicate it..

[langleybaston]

EGQL ............ I totally agree.

"Knowing" the wind at one instant in one place, or at a succession of instants in several places, can only provide a crude predictor for the near future.

Its the nature of the beast. I spent my career wrestling with it.

[4468]

Dubai is rich.

What's the betting that within 12 months DXB has the most sophisticated wind detection system known to man?

Non of which would have prevented this accident, unless the airport had been closed to landings. Which it wouldn't have been.

It's tidy PR.

[notapilot15]

Originally Posted by 4468

Dubai is rich.

Let me rephrase it for you.

Dubai's lenders were rich. No longer the case though.