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Emirates B777 gear collapse @ DXB?

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Emirates B777 gear collapse @ DXB?

Old 8th Aug 2016, 06:33
  #601 (permalink)  
 
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I think you'll find even at LHR most widebody Jets will be back at Vref + additives by 600' at the latest.
So somewhere around 140 to 150 kts or so.

LHR require 160 kts to 4 nm on the ILS which would be 1,340' AGL approx.

180 to 2 nm is not only stupid it's not possible.....
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 06:51
  #602 (permalink)  
 
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That would be ground speed right? 140IAS, adjust for TAS, add tailwind and it would be close.
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 06:52
  #603 (permalink)  
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ATC cannot "close" an airport due to weather. It's PIC call on whether to land or not.
If you have a cyclone coming in and the tower is evacuated, you are on your own but you can land if you want.
Same if you want to take off in a 50kt tailwind. ATC can advise against it but can't stop you.
Etc etc
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 06:55
  #604 (permalink)  
 
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Depends where you are Farrell. Seen it done in China. UAE has closed its airspace due weather a couple of times this year.
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 06:58
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ATC and the controlling state can close an airport.....airspace...what ever they want......but I agree if using commanders authority in an emergency you can land where you want.......roads rivers sea..etc help yourself......if you need it use it.....but ATC can close an airport due weather or any other reason they want
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 06:58
  #606 (permalink)  
 
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possibly correct, 160 IAS at 600' 49 c TAS = 170, so with 10 kts tail it would be 180....
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 07:01
  #607 (permalink)  
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Indeed, correct.
But it's done by the airport operator.
And again, while being "closed" it's still "open" as a last resort. You know we'd all choose to go in NOTAM or not if necessary.
But I do understand your point. Can only go from my limited ATC experience in Oman during two cyclones. Closed but not closed as they say.
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 07:04
  #608 (permalink)  
 
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Agree.........but back to automation and how the operators are implementing it
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 07:17
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The chart posted looks to be from the ADS-B data posted by FlightRadar24. You'll note that the last data recorded on the chart is 8:37:43; when the FR data resumes, 30 seconds later, the aircraft is stationary, and the altitude is still fluctuating between 525/550 (Q0994=530 feet, 0993=546).
The first time they get to Pressure altitude
2016-08-03 08:37:13Z.302,0x89609b,UAE521,25.26224,55.35482,525,4772,177 ,122,-448,A

Or 177 kts
The low point on the chart comes eleven seconds later:

2016-08-03 08:37:24Z.872,0x89609b,UAE521,25.25739,55.36341,475,4772,154 ,122,512,A

Or 50 feet below pressure altitude, 154 knots and climbing.
The bounce peak is:
2016-08-03 08:37:35Z.134,0x89609b,UAE521,25.25423,55.36921,625,4772,134 ,120,640,A
100 feet above pressure altitude, 134 knots. They don't get any higher, and the speed comes off.
This is probably when they hit:
2016-08-03 08:37:40Z.160,0x89609b,UAE521,25.25249,55.37249,525,4772,124 ,119,-1024,A
First, these data are obviously suspect. ADS-B is not an accident investigation tool, and that there's a reading 50 feet below pressure altitude doesn't help.
Second, if you believe the data, they came in, floated for eleven seconds, then pulled up, bled off their remaining airspeed and came down again when the thing stopped flying.
Third, don't believe everything you read on the internet.
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 07:30
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Regarding the undercarriage down or up at any stage during landing has anyone seen any pictures of said undercarriage anywhere on the runway or aircraft? I haven't which suggests that the undercarriage is still in its relevant wheel wells. Yes there is a nose gear door visible but no wheels. I only mention this for those that are suggesting the undercarriage broke away, if it did where is it?
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 07:34
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Is 49C actually the OAT for the accident? Or is it just the officially reported temp, with the actual temp possibly being higher?
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 07:48
  #612 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by donpizmeov View Post
That would be ground speed right? 140IAS, adjust for TAS, add tailwind and it would be close.
Don, you are 100% right, we need to take into account OAT, PA, IAS, TAS, tailwind, however regardless of all above, if u just look at the data given by flightaware, 10 min prior EK521, B777 a/c crossed 700ft at 140kts GS, we are talking 40kts diff my friend
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 08:18
  #613 (permalink)  
 
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Emerates B777 DBX

I am not entirely sure what you are suggesting....on approach flap alarms will be activated if no undercarriage is deployed infering the under carriage was deployed upon landing. A combination of computer or mechanical failure could have deceived the pilots on this.However I am not sure what degree of float would be experienced in these weather conditions. It could just be the pilots decided on a go around and was caught in a ground effect after raising the undercarriage at too lower altitude?
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 08:38
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undercarriage

# 616 by BENDIX TIE BAR

The first two pics may answer your question(s)

And the third may give some clue to those who commented (a lot) about flaps and angles. Note the "sane wing" flaps seem to be in the position selected by the crew. The other wing flaps are evidently angle-changed by the crash.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
Crash-landing (1).jpg (27.4 KB, 1143 views)
File Type: jpg
Crash-landing (5).jpg (29.6 KB, 1036 views)
File Type: jpg
EK521flaps.jpg (40.3 KB, 1016 views)

Last edited by guadaMB; 8th Aug 2016 at 08:41. Reason: mention of #616 post
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 09:15
  #615 (permalink)  
 
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616 by BENDIX TIE BAR

The first two pics may answer your question(s)

And the third may give some clue to those who commented (a lot) about flaps and angles. Note the "sane wing" flaps seem to be in the position selected by the crew. The other wing flaps are evidently angle-changed by the crash.
For me, the first pic answers a question. You realize all, that the nosewheel gear dor is open !? The gear was extended then, right?
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 09:27
  #616 (permalink)  
 
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No, the large nose gear doors you see are only open while the gear is in transit. Once locked down or up those large doors are closed. Only the smaller doors beside the wheels are down ( when the gear are down ).......

So what does this mean? Perhaps the wheels were in transit when ground contact happened........or possibly they were forced open by the impact? We don't know.

Last edited by ACMS; 8th Aug 2016 at 09:46.
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 09:37
  #617 (permalink)  
 
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Oh and take a look at a 777 landing Flap from behind, the inboard and outboard Flaps appear to be different angles. The inboard Flaps are double slotted ( correct term? ) while the outboard are not. Thus appearing to be different.
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 09:44
  #618 (permalink)  
 
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Great pic, and the nose wheel doors are open!
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 09:47
  #619 (permalink)  
 
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No actually only the small doors are open mate, which is normal.

The large nose gear doors are located forward, basically under and slightly forward of the 2 right side pitot tubes and Ice detector when they are open. These doors you see on the Air France 777 landing are the smaller doors only. The big doors are closed.

Look at the normal photo I've included of a EK 777 retraction in this reply, the main nose gear doors are under and slightly forward of the Pitot tubes, now look at the crash photo again.

On the EK 777 crash photo above the large doors are open........indicating the gear was most likely in transit.....

Ok

Last edited by ACMS; 8th Aug 2016 at 10:00.
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Old 8th Aug 2016, 09:52
  #620 (permalink)  
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Picture of large doors open.

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