EgyptAir 804 disappears from radar Paris-Cairo
RIGHTSEATKC135,
Nice tale except a KC-135 doesn't have an engineer on the crew and doesn't have a F/E station "four feet" behind the co-pilot.
Nice tale except a KC-135 doesn't have an engineer on the crew and doesn't have a F/E station "four feet" behind the co-pilot.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,307
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
According to Wikipedia, there were some KC135's fitted with Flight Engineer positions.
KC-135D
All four RC-135As (Pacer Swan) were modified to partial KC-135A configuration in 1979.[42][43] The four aircraft (serial numbers 63-8058, 63-8059, 63-8060 and 63-8061) were given a unique designation KC-135D as they differed from the KC-135A in that they were built with a flight engineer's position on the flight deck.[44] The flight engineer's position was removed when the aircraft were modified to KC-135 standards but they retained their electrically powered wing flap secondary (emergency) drive mechanism and second air conditioning pack which had been used to cool the RC-135As on-board photo-mapping systems.[45] Later
KC-135D
All four RC-135As (Pacer Swan) were modified to partial KC-135A configuration in 1979.[42][43] The four aircraft (serial numbers 63-8058, 63-8059, 63-8060 and 63-8061) were given a unique designation KC-135D as they differed from the KC-135A in that they were built with a flight engineer's position on the flight deck.[44] The flight engineer's position was removed when the aircraft were modified to KC-135 standards but they retained their electrically powered wing flap secondary (emergency) drive mechanism and second air conditioning pack which had been used to cool the RC-135As on-board photo-mapping systems.[45] Later
Military surveillance systems
Or more specifically "all these military air-surveillance radars and satellite-born radars and optical systems never have anything to say PUBLICLY ....".
What those systems actually see, and what their operators actually pass to the civil authorities and when they pass it is something that we, as mere mortals, will never fully know.
May have missed it in all these recent posts, but no-one has mentioned the Daallo Airlines event in Mogadishu back on 2 February this year, where a hole was punched out of the fuselage, supposedly by a laptop device. They got the timing and the placement of the laptop and the airline wrong, (last minute swapout of aircraft, see link) but it must have been a learning experience for whoever built it.
https://www.rt.com/news/331800-somal...omber-turkish/
Since at present almost any theory is valid, just throwing this into the pot to bear in mind.
https://www.rt.com/news/331800-somal...omber-turkish/
Since at present almost any theory is valid, just throwing this into the pot to bear in mind.
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Florida
Age: 80
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some very interesting speculations. Like to see a post from A320 driver as to what happens with AP in and #1 eng fail at cruise alt. Memories of China 006 and AF 447. If ac can wind up in unusual attitude w tired pilots, could recovery induce structural failure? No evidence yet of in flight explosion but we shall see.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: USofA
Posts: 1,235
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think we have found a poser in our group. No flight engineers or for the matter first officers
on any RC135's. Now back to our story of the day.
Kind of strange that no one has stepped forward with a claim for this accident. Also if it was a bomb, there seems to be a lack of any Mayday calls which seems strange as well? Your thoughts?
on any RC135's. Now back to our story of the day.
Kind of strange that no one has stepped forward with a claim for this accident. Also if it was a bomb, there seems to be a lack of any Mayday calls which seems strange as well? Your thoughts?
..........Also if it was a bomb, there seems to be a lack of any Mayday calls ........
At the risk of stating the bleedin' obvious ..... if a bomb causes an almost instantaneous decompression, break up, call it what you will, how long do you think you might have left to make a radio call after your initial comment of "WTF was that ? "
Well known radio 'dead-zone' in that part of the Med when talking to Cairo.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Perth - Western Australia
Age: 75
Posts: 1,805
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Airbus has little by way of mechanical design problems. There does appear to be a confusion in understanding how the computerisation is controlling the aircraft when an unforeseen event happens. That confusion largely relates to adequate training of the crew - and how closely the crew do follow their training, when an emergency is upon them.
Overall, though, the reliability of the Airbus is proven, by the tens of thousands of uneventful flights carried out on a daily basis.
So the likelihood of this event being a terrorist attack is far higher than any aircraft or crew failure.
The terrorists learn from every attack they carry out. They have found out that bombs in the centre of an aircraft do not always work effectively. They have found out that the weakest part of an aircraft is in the tail region. Damage the tail region, and the aircraft falls uncontrollably.
Sharp turns at cruise or near-cruise level, possibly in the region of 90° and 360°, as mentioned by officials, indicate to me, an aircraft with a seriously damaged tail.
Terrorists rarely brag loudly and publically about their successes today, because they know that in this electronic age, it means that they will be promptly located, and will rapidly receive on their heads, a laser-guided missile from a great height, that they don't even see coming.
Overall, though, the reliability of the Airbus is proven, by the tens of thousands of uneventful flights carried out on a daily basis.
So the likelihood of this event being a terrorist attack is far higher than any aircraft or crew failure.
The terrorists learn from every attack they carry out. They have found out that bombs in the centre of an aircraft do not always work effectively. They have found out that the weakest part of an aircraft is in the tail region. Damage the tail region, and the aircraft falls uncontrollably.
Sharp turns at cruise or near-cruise level, possibly in the region of 90° and 360°, as mentioned by officials, indicate to me, an aircraft with a seriously damaged tail.
Terrorists rarely brag loudly and publically about their successes today, because they know that in this electronic age, it means that they will be promptly located, and will rapidly receive on their heads, a laser-guided missile from a great height, that they don't even see coming.
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Global
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What's sad is that some news channels have such poor analytics when it comes to these incidents. For example i just watched a news channel talk about how this was the 5th flight for this plane for 20 minutes....relevant? Yes but if you talk about miniscule facts to make them bigger to make news you create misleads. Its really unfortunate...then we have other news outlets declaring "wreckage found" when in fact it wasn't. Millions of ships pass through these waters every year. ..just because cargo ship disasters don't make headlines don't think a life vest or container debris can only come from 1 aircraft.
The fact that there was no response from the crew during ATC's attempts is very odd and decompression sure looks culpable however hears hoping they find the location of the plane so we can know more.
An Egyptian friend of mine told me today that back home the airline is under immense pressure from various news and foreign media outlets... lots of info coming in and they're trying to be very careful in what they let out..let's all take a deep breath and think positive and hope for the best.
Onetrack - well said and don't forget with current technology there is no requirement for terrorist to travel physically anymore. ..they can communicate freely electronically as well. I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere along the airport /airline routing someone was sought out and convinced. But then again we have 0 proof so let's focus our efforts in supporting the families and finding this plane. Not wreckage yet!
The fact that there was no response from the crew during ATC's attempts is very odd and decompression sure looks culpable however hears hoping they find the location of the plane so we can know more.
An Egyptian friend of mine told me today that back home the airline is under immense pressure from various news and foreign media outlets... lots of info coming in and they're trying to be very careful in what they let out..let's all take a deep breath and think positive and hope for the best.
Onetrack - well said and don't forget with current technology there is no requirement for terrorist to travel physically anymore. ..they can communicate freely electronically as well. I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere along the airport /airline routing someone was sought out and convinced. But then again we have 0 proof so let's focus our efforts in supporting the families and finding this plane. Not wreckage yet!
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: California
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Or more specifically "all these military air-surveillance radars and satellite-born radars and optical systems never have anything to say PUBLICLY ....".
What those systems actually see, and what their operators actually pass to the civil authorities and when they pass it is something that we, as mere mortals, will never fully know.
What those systems actually see, and what their operators actually pass to the civil authorities and when they pass it is something that we, as mere mortals, will never fully know.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Connecticut, USA
Age: 64
Posts: 252
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This may have been stated, but if so, I missed it. Do we know if the flight was on time? Assuming a timed device, a flight which was ahead or behind schedule could affect where the device went off. This incident seemed to be relatively close to land - wouldn't a terrorist prefer to blow up a flight further from shore where presumably the water would be deeper, and it would be more difficult to recover evidence?
jugofpropwash
FWIW you're never that far from land in Med (as in a couple of hundred miles), especially at the eastern end and regarding depth of water according to previous posters here this aircraft disappeared over the deepest bit.
This incident seemed to be relatively close to land
Last edited by wiggy; 20th May 2016 at 05:52.
This may have been stated, but if so, I missed it. Do we know if the flight was on time? Assuming a timed device, a flight which was ahead or behind schedule could affect where the device went off. This incident seemed to be relatively close to land - wouldn't a terrorist prefer to blow up a flight further from shore where presumably the water would be deeper, and it would be more difficult to recover evidence?
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Age: 53
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
This may have been stated, but if so, I missed it. Do we know if the flight was on time? Assuming a timed device, a flight which was ahead or behind schedule could affect where the device went off. This incident seemed to be relatively close to land - wouldn't a terrorist prefer to blow up a flight further from shore where presumably the water would be deeper, and it would be more difficult to recover evidence?
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Bath, UK
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm puzzled by media reports that the search seems to be focused on Karpathos, a Greek island to the ENE of Crete. The likely crash site, based on what we know from flight tracking sites, must be 250km or more SSE of there.
I'm sure there are folks out there who know where to look and are doing it right now - but at the risk of courting controversy, I don't trust the Greek or Egyptian authorities or the international media to provide reliable information.
I'm sure there are folks out there who know where to look and are doing it right now - but at the risk of courting controversy, I don't trust the Greek or Egyptian authorities or the international media to provide reliable information.
SL, the story was fed by the reported finding of life jackets and other debris near Karpathos (which should have been treated as a red flag), later confirmed to be not from the aircraft. The real search is centered on the LKP, around the position of m/v Oceanos.
The source is a vague statement made by the Greek Minister of transport referring to Greek AF radar data, from which creatives at various news outlets drew pretty pictures to fill the space in absence of any known facts.
PS: If you look closely on the drawing you showed, they even got the only verifiable figure wrong...
PS: If you look closely on the drawing you showed, they even got the only verifiable figure wrong...