B-738 Crash in Russia Rostov-on-Don

[beardedclam]

Interesting how the few posts I have read here clearly hold first officers in extremely low regard. Were you sky gods ever new? I am a new F/O on the A321 and have seen numerous errors by training captains, and gently "suggested" things regularly to muttered thanks. Reciprocal runways, incorrect STARS, gear up, GEAR UP, GEAR UP Please!, delayed Flap retraction, wrong taxiways, requesting FL ABOVE the Max, Missed FMAs, Flex detention for a G/A which is interesting for a few seconds. Never approaching CFIT or the likes, but worthy of raised eyebrows. We aren't just ballast you know.

[RAT 5]

beardedclam: you are quite right and correct to make your comment. The point I think many of the oldies are making is that much of the training today seems to discourage too much thinking for yourself and stresses more on following rigid SOP's. Rather than criticise the victims (F/O)'s) of this sad state of affairs we are trying to draw attention to the demise of airmanship. I can well understand it appears that the F/O's are being targeted as a generalism, which is unfair. It is all too easy to attempt to criticise 'the system' by commenting on the apparent short comings of the products of that system. Criticise by identifying examples; all too easy. Look at it another way; it's not a criticism of the new order of F/O's per se, but a sadness, on their behalf, that they might have a lesser apprenticeship before command than those of earlier generations.
I hope the captains you guided away from their errors appreciated your input and acknowledged it. All success with your career.

[Chronus]

Originally Posted by Sciolistes

I thought the option of turning off strobes and beacons in IMC if distracting was enshrined in airlaw?

I don`t know where and how it may be dealt with in Air Law, but it certainly has an important place in air safety. Strobes can cause "Flicker Vertigo ", which may result in nausea, dizziness, headache, panic, confusion, spatial disorientation and even loss of consciousness. Hence warnings on TV for any flashing lights in a broadcast, particularly for epilepsy sufferers. During short segments of flight such as climb and descent, on a/p crew unlikely to be affected. However prolonged use in cloud, such as when in the hold, strobes are best off. After all what is the point, if ATC and TCAS are not up to the job, then it is all too late anyway.

Landing lights, I always thought were rather handy to check for precipitation, especially snow, a pretty sight sometimes.

[Jwscud]

I have also learned as an FO some very good tricks from crusty old Captains. On one night at CAT I minima we got in where aircraft before and after us went around as the Captain had the sense to switch the lights off and we just saw enough to continue and land.

I learn these tricks wherever I can as I'm not bright enough to think of them myself!

[4runner]

Originally Posted by beardedclam

Interesting how the few posts I have read here clearly hold first officers in extremely low regard. Were you sky gods ever new? I am a new F/O on the A321 and have seen numerous errors by training captains, and gently "suggested" things regularly to muttered thanks. Reciprocal runways, incorrect STARS, gear up, GEAR UP, GEAR UP Please!, delayed Flap retraction, wrong taxiways, requesting FL ABOVE the Max, Missed FMAs, Flex detention for a G/A which is interesting for a few seconds. Never approaching CFIT or the likes, but worthy of raised eyebrows. We aren't just ballast you know.

So glad you could show up to clean house, oh ye master of 250 hours. A bitter, entitled, arrogant, self promoting FO is worse than ballast. They're a danger. You'll wait until the Skipper screws up just so you can come and save the day and fuel your own ego. You'd secretly crave mistakes and will incite discourse in the cockpit. In the US, guys like this are normally weeded out somewhere between their instrument training and airline interviews. I guess if you don't interview and just pay for your job, a few steps and dues were omitted and there weren't enough cracks to fall through.

[OK465]

You know, in 20 years of instructing on the 727, I've seen.....

FOs bail out Captains,

Captains enlighten FOs, and (gasp)

FEs bail out both the guys with the window seats....

On any given day, you never know, the old bell-curve can be pesky....

[Vc10Tail]

Go Around (or take off rotation)...is essentially a heads down instrument flight maneuver.Might there have been some AHRS or IRS issues here?

The technical name by Collins who manufactured FDs for Boeing were "single cue" (V Bar) or Double Cue.Cue is more like a hint.Director is an order or dictate.The cues come from FCCs.So perhaps the FCCs might have been erroneous?

[Avenger]

It is unlikely the full transcript of the CVR will be released, the FDR will only tell us the mechanical inputs and the fact there was a conflict of opinion means s loss of SA and breakdown in CRM. Why the go around was botched we will probably never know and I suspect the theories will continue. A probe into crew composition and fatigue may help but it appears the lessons of the Staines Trident and other similar have not been heeded after all these years of pompous classroom CRM and buzz word jargon. I'm an old fart but willingly embrace technology, all this looking through the FD and raw data nonsense should be confined to Jurassic park. On the other hand when we ask our trainees and even experienced Captains "what do you EXPECT to see the FD commanding" the blank picture tells a thousand words as they say .As mentioned before, the all engine go around is the most commonly mishandled manoeuvre both on line and in the sim

[striker26]

An Illusion Made FlyDubai Pilots Crash Their Plane Into the Ground

"An Illusion Made FlyDubai Pilots Crash Their Plane Into the Ground"

[Avenger]

An Illusion Made FlyDubai Pilots Crash Their Plane Into the Ground"

This is, at the moment, pure speculation and there is no evidence to support this theory, just because many sites are jumping on the bandwagon and repeating this " theory" its does not make it true. When all said and done, this will turn out to be a mishandled go-around and loss of control. If one were to adopt this " illusion theory", in practice we could crash every time we entered cloud in similar conditions.. I for one, don't buy it

[Vc10Tail]

Golden Rules of Flying

OPERATIONS GOLDEN RULES address aspects that are considered frequent causal factors on incidents and accidents.Although developed gor trainees, the Operations Golden Rules ate equally useful to experienced pilots.

They address the following but not limited to:-

* Inadequate situational/positional awareness;
*incorrect interraction with automation;
*overteliance on automation; and
*ineffective crew cross-check and mutual back-up.

Statistical data(source: Flight Safety Foundation-1998 to 1999) show that amongst the most frequent causal factors in Approach-and-Landing accidents as a % of events (might have contributed to FZ981 fate?) :-
*Inadequate decion making .....74%

*Ommission of Action or in appropriate
action .......72%

*Inadequate CRM ....63%

*INSUFFICIENT HORIZONTAL AND VERTICAL S.A.........52%

*Inadequate or insufficient comprehension of prevailing conditions...48%

*Slow or delayed crew action(fatigue correlated).....45%

*Flight handling difficulties (fatigue,incapacitation,correlated)....45%

*Incorrect or incompetent pilot/ATC communication (Altimetry or other maneuvering non compliance)....33%

*Inappropriate interaction with automation........20%

The following 8 Golden Rules apply on normal conditions and,more importantly, in any unanticipated or abnormal/emergency flight condition.

1.Automated a/c can be flown like ANY other aircraft.(stick/rudder/throttle)..Power+Attitude...followed by Trim will yield a predictable performance.Basic Attitude Instrument Flying principles apply. So when things go crazy..disconnect automatics (including the FD) and simply...FLY!

RULE 2. FLY
NAVIGATE
COMMINICATE
MANAGE(Systems,Crew,Pax,ATC,OCC)

In a nut shell FLY snd NAVIGATE mean

Know WHERE you are
Know where you SHOULD BE
Know where the TERRAIN and obstacles are LOCATED.

COMMUNICATE mean attract appropriatecattention to ATC: Pan call? May day (many a time pilots hesitate this and then left too late! And we start questioning the need for CTV recorders to fill the gaps of knowledge)

MANAGE' The contonuation of the flight under the remaining aicraft and dystem support capabilities After performong the required Emergency/Abnormal procedures.

RULE 3. ONE HEAD UP AT ALL TIMES!

RULE4. CROSS CHECK FMS WITH RAW DATA

RULE 5. KNOW YOUR GUIDANCE AT ALL
TIMES (FCU/MCP, FMS
CDU,PFD/FMA,ND.
At all times PF snd PM should be AWARE of:
*Modes armed or engaged;
*Guidance targets sets;
*Aircraft response in germs of attitude,speed,trajectory;and,
*Mode transitions and Reversions.

RULE 6. (THE ...GOLDEN RULE) When
things dont go as expected,
TAKE OVER WITHOUT DELAY!

*FMS (MANAGED) guidance to
SELECTED guidance
*SELECTED guidance to HAND
FLYING!

RULE 7. USE THE CORRECT LEVEL OF
AUTOMATION FOR THE TASK IN
HAND.
It will depend upon the task to be performed:
*tactical (immediate/short term)
*strategic (longer term)
*Flight phase
*Time available

RULE 8. PRACTICE TASK SHARING AND
BACK-UP EACH OTHER.

When the accident report is ultimately disclosed I am convinced many of these aforementioned 8 Golden Rules are likely to surface. Let us hope we not only can learn from them but measures,facilities,training schemes will be instituted expeditiously world wide to mitigate against similar occurrences.

[ManaAdaSystem]

You can throw 100 golden rules at a tired flight crew, and they will still be tired.
What is really simple for a rested crew, can be very difficult for a tired crew in the middle of the night.

When the report is realeased I hope they focus on this, but I am not holding my breath. The roster was legal, you know. Legal = safe. Or so they think.

[Chronus]

Discussion on this thread has developed to focus on human factors. However so far, a crucial element seems to have escaped consideration. That is, whether it falls to be considered UCFIT or CFIT. The human factors relevant to each would involve different cognitive elements. From the most likely will ensue the relevant human factors involved.

[RAT 5]

IMHO opinion what is vital in a crash like this is that ALL the relevant facts are published. No BS white-wash. We, the profession, must demand full disclosure.

[Vc10Tail]

Illusions

Illusions in flight.

[Vc10Tail]

Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem

You can throw 100 golden rules at a tired flight crew, and they will still be tired.
What is really simple for a rested crew, can be very difficult for a tired crew in the middle of the night.

When the report is realeased I hope they focus on this, but I am not holding my breath. The roster was legal, you know. Legal = safe. Or so they think.

Mana ada before trashing posts you are recommended to read them."tired crew" as you remarked is not different to "fatigue" which I implied as causal factors.I was merely driving home a more fundamental point.The whole point of the golden rules is to offer clarity during sttess and chaos..which would benefit especially a "tired crew".

No there are no 100 golden rules...just 8.Do try to keep them in mind....

Roster was not necessarily an issue.Long term fatigue may be.It also depends if the crew and especially the PF if he had any fatigue induced mental or physical activities prior to the flight.Voice on ATC tape does not exhibit alarming levels of fatigue He seemed calm and collected.May God rest their soul in peace.

[ManaAdaSystem]

No trashing, but I have to admit I have a minor problem with the PPRuNe flight instructors who always are ready to tell us all how to fly, and what happens if we don't fall over with praise when they spread the golden nuggets. Or rules.

[flash8]

IMHO opinion what is vital in a crash like this is that ALL the relevant facts are published. No BS white-wash. We, the profession, must demand full disclosure.

RAT 5 is quite right here imho. Whilst I have every faith in MAK, other authorities I have zero faith in at all. The contributory factors may well be the most important issues here and certain parties likely having every intention of having them swept under the carpet.. imho again of course, and based on what we know.

[Vc10Tail]

Mana Ada..nothing happens you just imbelish yourself with your petty argument.Am not an instructor...but a trained investigator.Those Golden nuggets might very well save your neck one day...if you pay attention.

This is a forum for sharinfg Aviation thoughts and ideas.Am not sure whether you are simmer or a flyier but keep ego out of this.So..here i am applauding you for knowing how to fly.You have received severe criticism in your previous posts for your show off inputs where your knowledge perhaps requires additional instruction.A pilot that ceases to learn from others ...is a essentially a dead bird.

[Capn Bloggs]

VC10, you're overreacting. All that airbus stuff about how to fly aeroplanes should be second-nature to anybody proficient in the job. The fact that they are published just means pilots aren't trained properly any more. To be honest, I cringe every time I read that poor-English list of how-to-do-it. Not that I disagree with it, but it's all commonsense and covered by SOPs (eg FMA readouts).

Are you now going to announce that this crew didn't comply with Golden Rule number 6?