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B-738 Crash in Russia Rostov-on-Don

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B-738 Crash in Russia Rostov-on-Don

Old 25th Apr 2016, 11:15
  #1361 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by flyingchanges View Post
Should be called flight suggester, not flight director.
As someone who flies an aircraft where the flight director and autopilot are entirely independent and the autopilot doesn't actually follow the flight director all that well, I agree with the general sentiment on flight directors. However, the worst flying I've ever seen in the aircraft was from someone trying to "look through" the flight director. If the flight director AND raw data are all telling you the same thing, then follow the damned flight director! "Why not just follow the flight director?" I ask, "because it's crap" he says, "well, it may not be the best in the business but it's a hell of a lot better than you my friend and all of your problems would be solved if you just followed it." I didn't say that, but I was thinking it!
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Old 25th Apr 2016, 11:44
  #1362 (permalink)  
 
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I was IMC, deep in cloud There was this red light mind thumping ef'ing irritating distracting light show going on outside. I turned off the collision beacon. The F/O said, "are we allow to do that?" " We are now!" There then followed a lengthy discussion about the merits of using common sense. We decided that the rotating red beacon served naff all in preventing a collision; it was causing us no end of distraction, and merited turning off. The realisation from F/O that such deviation from SOP's was possible was astounding; and disturbing.
We survived to fly another day.
RAT 5, I'm with you all the way here. I find these stories about the way new FOs have been "programmed" to be very concerning.

There is a huge difference between "doing things right" = management and "doing the right thing" = leadership.
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Old 25th Apr 2016, 15:57
  #1363 (permalink)  
 
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I thought the option of turning off strobes and beacons in IMC if distracting was enshrined in airlaw?
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Old 25th Apr 2016, 16:45
  #1364 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting how the few posts I have read here clearly hold first officers in extremely low regard. Were you sky gods ever new? I am a new F/O on the A321 and have seen numerous errors by training captains, and gently "suggested" things regularly to muttered thanks. Reciprocal runways, incorrect STARS, gear up, GEAR UP, GEAR UP Please!, delayed Flap retraction, wrong taxiways, requesting FL ABOVE the Max, Missed FMAs, Flex detention for a G/A which is interesting for a few seconds. Never approaching CFIT or the likes, but worthy of raised eyebrows. We aren't just ballast you know.
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Old 25th Apr 2016, 18:14
  #1365 (permalink)  
 
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beardedclam: you are quite right and correct to make your comment. The point I think many of the oldies are making is that much of the training today seems to discourage too much thinking for yourself and stresses more on following rigid SOP's. Rather than criticise the victims (F/O)'s) of this sad state of affairs we are trying to draw attention to the demise of airmanship. I can well understand it appears that the F/O's are being targeted as a generalism, which is unfair. It is all too easy to attempt to criticise 'the system' by commenting on the apparent short comings of the products of that system. Criticise by identifying examples; all too easy. Look at it another way; it's not a criticism of the new order of F/O's per se, but a sadness, on their behalf, that they might have a lesser apprenticeship before command than those of earlier generations.
I hope the captains you guided away from their errors appreciated your input and acknowledged it. All success with your career.
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Old 25th Apr 2016, 19:59
  #1366 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sciolistes View Post
I thought the option of turning off strobes and beacons in IMC if distracting was enshrined in airlaw?
I don`t know where and how it may be dealt with in Air Law, but it certainly has an important place in air safety. Strobes can cause "Flicker Vertigo ", which may result in nausea, dizziness, headache, panic, confusion, spatial disorientation and even loss of consciousness. Hence warnings on TV for any flashing lights in a broadcast, particularly for epilepsy sufferers. During short segments of flight such as climb and descent, on a/p crew unlikely to be affected. However prolonged use in cloud, such as when in the hold, strobes are best off. After all what is the point, if ATC and TCAS are not up to the job, then it is all too late anyway.

Landing lights, I always thought were rather handy to check for precipitation, especially snow, a pretty sight sometimes.
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Old 25th Apr 2016, 21:13
  #1367 (permalink)  
 
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I have also learned as an FO some very good tricks from crusty old Captains. On one night at CAT I minima we got in where aircraft before and after us went around as the Captain had the sense to switch the lights off and we just saw enough to continue and land.

I learn these tricks wherever I can as I'm not bright enough to think of them myself!
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Old 26th Apr 2016, 18:01
  #1368 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by beardedclam View Post
Interesting how the few posts I have read here clearly hold first officers in extremely low regard. Were you sky gods ever new? I am a new F/O on the A321 and have seen numerous errors by training captains, and gently "suggested" things regularly to muttered thanks. Reciprocal runways, incorrect STARS, gear up, GEAR UP, GEAR UP Please!, delayed Flap retraction, wrong taxiways, requesting FL ABOVE the Max, Missed FMAs, Flex detention for a G/A which is interesting for a few seconds. Never approaching CFIT or the likes, but worthy of raised eyebrows. We aren't just ballast you know.
So glad you could show up to clean house, oh ye master of 250 hours. A bitter, entitled, arrogant, self promoting FO is worse than ballast. They're a danger. You'll wait until the Skipper screws up just so you can come and save the day and fuel your own ego. You'd secretly crave mistakes and will incite discourse in the cockpit. In the US, guys like this are normally weeded out somewhere between their instrument training and airline interviews. I guess if you don't interview and just pay for your job, a few steps and dues were omitted and there weren't enough cracks to fall through.
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Old 26th Apr 2016, 20:49
  #1369 (permalink)  
 
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You know, in 20 years of instructing on the 727, I've seen.....

FOs bail out Captains,

Captains enlighten FOs, and (gasp)

FEs bail out both the guys with the window seats....

On any given day, you never know, the old bell-curve can be pesky....
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Old 26th Apr 2016, 21:29
  #1370 (permalink)  
 
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Go Around (or take off rotation)...is essentially a heads down instrument flight maneuver.Might there have been some AHRS or IRS issues here?

The technical name by Collins who manufactured FDs for Boeing were "single cue" (V Bar) or Double Cue.Cue is more like a hint.Director is an order or dictate.The cues come from FCCs.So perhaps the FCCs might have been erroneous?

Last edited by Vc10Tail; 26th Apr 2016 at 21:47.
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Old 27th Apr 2016, 05:56
  #1371 (permalink)  
 
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It is unlikely the full transcript of the CVR will be released, the FDR will only tell us the mechanical inputs and the fact there was a conflict of opinion means s loss of SA and breakdown in CRM. Why the go around was botched we will probably never know and I suspect the theories will continue. A probe into crew composition and fatigue may help but it appears the lessons of the Staines Trident and other similar have not been heeded after all these years of pompous classroom CRM and buzz word jargon. I'm an old fart but willingly embrace technology, all this looking through the FD and raw data nonsense should be confined to Jurassic park. On the other hand when we ask our trainees and even experienced Captains "what do you EXPECT to see the FD commanding" the blank picture tells a thousand words as they say .As mentioned before, the all engine go around is the most commonly mishandled manoeuvre both on line and in the sim

Last edited by Avenger; 27th Apr 2016 at 06:12. Reason: Lost connection
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Old 27th Apr 2016, 05:58
  #1372 (permalink)  
 
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An Illusion Made FlyDubai Pilots Crash Their Plane Into the Ground

"An Illusion Made FlyDubai Pilots Crash Their Plane Into the Ground"
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Old 27th Apr 2016, 12:05
  #1373 (permalink)  
 
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An Illusion Made FlyDubai Pilots Crash Their Plane Into the Ground"

This is, at the moment, pure speculation and there is no evidence to support this theory, just because many sites are jumping on the bandwagon and repeating this " theory" its does not make it true. When all said and done, this will turn out to be a mishandled go-around and loss of control. If one were to adopt this " illusion theory", in practice we could crash every time we entered cloud in similar conditions.. I for one, don't buy it
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Old 27th Apr 2016, 17:34
  #1374 (permalink)  
 
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Golden Rules of Flying

OPERATIONS GOLDEN RULES address aspects that are considered frequent causal factors on incidents and accidents.Although developed gor trainees, the Operations Golden Rules ate equally useful to experienced pilots.

They address the following but not limited to:-

* Inadequate situational/positional awareness;
*incorrect interraction with automation;
*overteliance on automation; and
*ineffective crew cross-check and mutual back-up.

Statistical data(source: Flight Safety Foundation-1998 to 1999) show that amongst the most frequent causal factors in Approach-and-Landing accidents as a % of events (might have contributed to FZ981 fate?) :-
*Inadequate decion making .....74%

*Ommission of Action or in appropriate
action .......72%

*Inadequate CRM ....63%

*INSUFFICIENT HORIZONTAL AND VERTICAL S.A.........52%

*Inadequate or insufficient comprehension of prevailing conditions...48%

*Slow or delayed crew action(fatigue correlated).....45%

*Flight handling difficulties (fatigue,incapacitation,correlated)....45%

*Incorrect or incompetent pilot/ATC communication (Altimetry or other maneuvering non compliance)....33%

*Inappropriate interaction with automation........20%

The following 8 Golden Rules apply on normal conditions and,more importantly, in any unanticipated or abnormal/emergency flight condition.

1.Automated a/c can be flown like ANY other aircraft.(stick/rudder/throttle)..Power+Attitude...followed by Trim will yield a predictable performance.Basic Attitude Instrument Flying principles apply. So when things go crazy..disconnect automatics (including the FD) and simply...FLY!

RULE 2. FLY
NAVIGATE
COMMINICATE
MANAGE(Systems,Crew,Pax,ATC,OCC)

In a nut shell FLY snd NAVIGATE mean

Know WHERE you are
Know where you SHOULD BE
Know where the TERRAIN and obstacles are LOCATED.

COMMUNICATE mean attract appropriatecattention to ATC: Pan call? May day (many a time pilots hesitate this and then left too late! And we start questioning the need for CTV recorders to fill the gaps of knowledge)

MANAGE' The contonuation of the flight under the remaining aicraft and dystem support capabilities After performong the required Emergency/Abnormal procedures.

RULE 3. ONE HEAD UP AT ALL TIMES!

RULE4. CROSS CHECK FMS WITH RAW DATA

RULE 5. KNOW YOUR GUIDANCE AT ALL
TIMES (FCU/MCP, FMS
CDU,PFD/FMA,ND.
At all times PF snd PM should be AWARE of:
*Modes armed or engaged;
*Guidance targets sets;
*Aircraft response in germs of attitude,speed,trajectory;and,
*Mode transitions and Reversions.

RULE 6. (THE ...GOLDEN RULE) When
things dont go as expected,
TAKE OVER WITHOUT DELAY!

*FMS (MANAGED) guidance to
SELECTED guidance
*SELECTED guidance to HAND
FLYING!

RULE 7. USE THE CORRECT LEVEL OF
AUTOMATION FOR THE TASK IN
HAND.
It will depend upon the task to be performed:
*tactical (immediate/short term)
*strategic (longer term)
*Flight phase
*Time available

RULE 8. PRACTICE TASK SHARING AND
BACK-UP EACH OTHER.

When the accident report is ultimately disclosed I am convinced many of these aforementioned 8 Golden Rules are likely to surface. Let us hope we not only can learn from them but measures,facilities,training schemes will be instituted expeditiously world wide to mitigate against similar occurrences.

Last edited by Vc10Tail; 27th Apr 2016 at 21:17.
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Old 27th Apr 2016, 19:13
  #1375 (permalink)  
 
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You can throw 100 golden rules at a tired flight crew, and they will still be tired.
What is really simple for a rested crew, can be very difficult for a tired crew in the middle of the night.

When the report is realeased I hope they focus on this, but I am not holding my breath. The roster was legal, you know. Legal = safe. Or so they think.
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Old 27th Apr 2016, 19:46
  #1376 (permalink)  
 
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Discussion on this thread has developed to focus on human factors. However so far, a crucial element seems to have escaped consideration. That is, whether it falls to be considered UCFIT or CFIT. The human factors relevant to each would involve different cognitive elements. From the most likely will ensue the relevant human factors involved.
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Old 27th Apr 2016, 20:23
  #1377 (permalink)  
 
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IMHO opinion what is vital in a crash like this is that ALL the relevant facts are published. No BS white-wash. We, the profession, must demand full disclosure.
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Old 27th Apr 2016, 20:48
  #1378 (permalink)  
 
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Illusions

Illusions in flight.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf
DOC-20160427-WA0008.pdf (929.1 KB, 183 views)
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Old 27th Apr 2016, 21:08
  #1379 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem View Post
You can throw 100 golden rules at a tired flight crew, and they will still be tired.
What is really simple for a rested crew, can be very difficult for a tired crew in the middle of the night.

When the report is realeased I hope they focus on this, but I am not holding my breath. The roster was legal, you know. Legal = safe. Or so they think.
Mana ada before trashing posts you are recommended to read them."tired crew" as you remarked is not different to "fatigue" which I implied as causal factors.I was merely driving home a more fundamental point.The whole point of the golden rules is to offer clarity during sttess and chaos..which would benefit especially a "tired crew".

No there are no 100 golden rules...just 8.Do try to keep them in mind....

Roster was not necessarily an issue.Long term fatigue may be.It also depends if the crew and especially the PF if he had any fatigue induced mental or physical activities prior to the flight.Voice on ATC tape does not exhibit alarming levels of fatigue He seemed calm and collected.May God rest their soul in peace.

Last edited by Vc10Tail; 27th Apr 2016 at 21:23.
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Old 27th Apr 2016, 21:27
  #1380 (permalink)  
 
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No trashing, but I have to admit I have a minor problem with the PPRuNe flight instructors who always are ready to tell us all how to fly, and what happens if we don't fall over with praise when they spread the golden nuggets. Or rules.
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