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ANA order A380

Old 4th Jan 2016, 06:55
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But remember, even the new Air Force One planes will be 747-8 !
So what? like the US are ever NOT going to go with Boeing (see the farce of the KC-45 procurement)

Hell would have to freeze over before the US government stopped using Boeing (or other US co.) for anything they can.

No problem though, so long as the president does not mind being second best!

Boeing did a study years ago and found that a majority of 747 buyers (80%?) bought the jet for it's range and not the size.
?? A380 has far greater range than the 747 (bar the 747-400ER with 30% less seats)

(Qantas use the A380 on the Dallas to Sydney route, some 8,577 miles, currently the longest non-stop scheduled route).
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Old 4th Jan 2016, 10:31
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they'll only buy 15-20

ANA buying A380s is a natural network evolution I guess. 30-40% bigger then the 744 VLA's they used over the last 25 years. For the next 25 years, unremarkable.



The've 140 widebodies and are one of the few 777-9 buyers too, so I guess they'll only buy 15-20 for connecting to the Star Alliance hubs (FRA, LAX, ORD) and major slots restricted destinations like JFK, LHR, CDG and the likes.
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Old 4th Jan 2016, 16:01
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Skylon, my question was A380 v 747/800 pax versions!

It is indeed lucky for Boeing that the 748 freighter has been popular!

Regardless of Boeings investment, sales of the pax version have been very poor!
Re Obamas replacement, as if the US would have bought anything else!
Also worth noting that the 747 is well and truly at the end of its lifetime, wereas the 380 program has plenty of growth prospects.
There are many simliarities in the early stages of the 747 and 380 programs, both required large outlays by the companies, and initial sales were not so good.
The return on Airbuses large investment in the 380, can only be judged in 15 years time!
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Old 4th Jan 2016, 16:03
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I presume that you mean that ANA will only buy 15-20 A380s. If that is so, it will be a fantastic development for Airbus. I only had them down for an absolute maximum of 10 ! And, probably fewer than that.
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Old 4th Jan 2016, 17:03
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Does anyone know the number of projected A380 deliveries necessary in order for Airbus Industrie to meet their startup costs for the aircraft?
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Old 4th Jan 2016, 17:59
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@WhatsaLizad?
Scratching my head at Emirates when they add A380 service to places like DUB.
Well, not many passengers end up their trip in Dubai (which is DXB, by the way).
You cannot possibly ignore that DXB is a major hub from Europe to E and S-E Asia at least, not to mention AU and NZ.
And with these flight coming from major European airports where EK can't have as many slots as they'd want to, this does make a lot of sense to me.
As I wrote earlier, they seem to fill them up fairly easily, at least from CDG. I suspect that these are profitable routes.

I also wonder how the numbers would work for AB and Emirates with an upgraded A380 replacing earlier versions with residual values near scrap metal prices.
An entirely different issue and a very valid point. If they can't sell their ageing A380 airframes for a decent price, that'd certainly make them think twice.
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Old 4th Jan 2016, 18:19
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DUB is Dublin.
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Old 4th Jan 2016, 22:03
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Yes, I meant Dublin.


I thought there was discussion in another thread somewhere about EK plans to serve DUB (Dublin) with an A380.


Can't find it at moment, I may be mistaken.
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Old 4th Jan 2016, 23:25
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Originally Posted by WhatsaLizad?
Yes, I meant Dublin.


I thought there was discussion in another thread somewhere about EK plans to serve DUB (Dublin) with an A380.


Can't find it at moment, I may be mistaken.
It's in the ME section
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Old 5th Jan 2016, 06:15
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DUB is Dublin.
Oops sorry for the confusion.
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Old 5th Jan 2016, 06:51
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I'm definitely within this target, and the A380 precisely is what made me switch my own tiny business as a frequent traveller between Europe and S-E Asia from Etihad to Emirates. They offer roughly the same fares, plus or minus variations based on season and promotions, but the service on the A380 is so much better than on the A330/B777 Etihad uses on these routes. Roomier, so much quieter. And yes, they do seem to manage to fill them up so I presume that these flights make money.
An therein lies the power of market forces. Your own 'tiny business' adds with everyone else's to move billions of dollars. Your views really, really matter to airlines like Emirates and manufacturers like Boeing and Airbus.

Now imagine if Emirates replaced A380 on your route with something noisier and / or more cramped. I can't imagine that you'd be very pleased. Forgive me for putting words into your keyboard, but I guess that you'd start shopping around for a better deal?

How to Replace the A380?

Emirates themselves have said that their passengers are choosing A380 first, with only half an eye on price. They even have a modest transatlantic trade with passengers choosing to fly US->Dubai->Europe instead of US->Europe direct on US based airlines.

Conclusion: they cannot replace their A380s with something less comfortable, otherwise it really will then be all about price, especially if their competition retains A380 comfort levels.

Achieving that with Boeing products looks difficult at the moment. 787 is too narrow (so "roominess" is too expensive for the operator), and is only quiet if the heavy sound proofing is installed (most airlines don't fit it in economy). 777x isn't going to be that much different to the old 777 roominess-wise, and with thinner walls it probably isn't going to be much quieter.

I think the A380's benchmark is going to be here to stay. And with airport landing slot congestion, the A380 (or something that size) will increasingly be needed to deliver that benchmark.
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Old 5th Jan 2016, 07:50
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Originally Posted by msbbarratt

Now imagine if Emirates replaced A380 on your route with something noisier and / or more cramped. I can't imagine that you'd be very pleased. Forgive me for putting words into your keyboard, but I guess that you'd start shopping around for a better deal?

Conclusion: they cannot replace their A380s with something less comfortable, otherwise it really will then be all about price, especially if their competition retains A380 comfort levels.
I thought comfort aboard is what the operator wants to provide hence the outside bears very little reference on what is inside. I flew on an A320 that was unusual tight for my normal airline so I asked the cabin crew and sure enough they were leased from an ailing competitor.
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Old 5th Jan 2016, 19:06
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Now imagine if Emirates replaced A380 on your route with something noisier and / or more cramped. I can't imagine that you'd be very pleased. Forgive me for putting words into your keyboard
You did not, you've read my mind.
but I guess that you'd start shopping around for a better deal?
Most definitely, yes.

Yes, Emirates has put their bet on mass tourism and the A380 fits this quite well. Cheap tickets x a fully loaded A380 does make quite some money, I guess.
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Old 5th Jan 2016, 21:18
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I thought comfort aboard is what the operator wants to provide hence the outside bears very little reference on what is inside. I flew on an A320 that was unusual tight for my normal airline so I asked the cabin crew and sure enough they were leased from an ailing competitor.
I guess to some extent, though the economics of that is going to be made easier / harder by the dimensions of the aircraft. Also there's not a lot they can do about the noisiness of a given aircraft.

Interesting that your regular airline's norm was for a roomier cabin, and their ailing competitor crammed passengers in. Some sort of lesson there?

From reading other threads here it seems that Boeing have made it harder with the 787 being a touch too narrow, for example. They're also talking about somehow being able to cram in an extra seat in a row in 777x...

In contrast, and if Emirates are anything to go by, it seems that Airbus have managed to make the A380 reasonably economic to fly, a generously comfortable proposition for economy class, quiet, reliable, and big enough to accommodate crazily large things like The Residence and make it one of the most profitable seats one can buy a ticket for.

There's also the simple matter of being able to carry more passengers in one go than anything else in the sky. Having the biggest plane and somehow contriving to fill it up every flight whilst your competitors are flying 777s means that you have a larger share of the market. Market share matters quite a lot.

There is talk about trying to squeeze in an extra seat per row on the A380, but I think that would be a mistake. Emirates have publicly said they want an A380neo, which would be a way of getting better economics without having to squeeze in that extra seat. A stretch would be very appealing too I imagine.
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Old 6th Jan 2016, 00:09
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RR have made quite a few improvements to the efficiency of the Trent series since the A380 was introduced so it could well be possible to incorporate these changes into a revised engine for the A380. This could give a fuel burn improvement of maybe as much as 5% with only minor tweaks to the airframe.
This could be enough to satisfy customers without the enormous investment required for a full Neo variant.
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Old 6th Jan 2016, 00:37
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I may be wrong, but is it a fact the double decker design prohibits and afterlife as a freighter?
Is that because the head room of each deck is lower than a single deck and is the floor of the upper deck strong enough for freight.

I don't know the answers but wouldn't it to some extent depend on

A) the size of individual items
B) total floor weight limit
C) even weight per sq foot for smaller but heavy pallets.
D) can you fit one huge double deck freight door or would you have two one at the front for lower deck and rear for upper deck
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Old 6th Jan 2016, 00:38
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my son flew from LAX to MEL on a QF 747 (refitted) and then back on their A380. He found the 747 much more comfortable (economy class both directions).
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Old 6th Jan 2016, 01:00
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Passenger comfort

Alanthailande is right on the spot!

I too choose my infrequent-flyer trips based on the (perceived by me) comfort of the aircraft, despite the fact that I'm an Air NZ Frequent Flyer Points member.
So:
  • NZ <-> Oz: only three hours but a B737 will need to be 25% cheaper than an A320 before I'll give up the extra inch of seat width. Fortunately that's in Air NZ's favour.
  • NZ <-> Singapore: I'll fly via Auckland and use a Singapore Airlines A380 rather than go via Christchurch - even though Chch is cheaper. Next time, the flight might even be code-shared as an NZxxxx, so more Air Points for me
  • NZ <-> Europe: A toss-up between stops in Auckland and Singapore, or Sydney/Melbourne and Dubai. SG Star Alliance Airpoints may tip the balance. I'd prefer to go via Hong Kong, but I'm worried that all the airlines now fly only the dreadful (and dreaded) 10-abreast B777 or 9-abreast B787
  • NZ <-> North America: It might even be worth 'back-tracking' to Sydney and flying QF A380 to Dallas to avoid the torture of Air NZ's 10-abreast 772 or 9-abreast 789 - bugger the Air Points

It's not just the seat width, by the way, it's also the noise: the A380 is very obviously quieter for the passenger than the B777.
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Old 6th Jan 2016, 03:50
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HNL does not have the gates or taxiways to accommodate the 380.
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Old 6th Jan 2016, 05:34
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ALSO to date Haneda has banned A380 ops due the extra wake turbulance requirements, foreign devil requests for slots - even at dead times - refused.

Unless the politics changes an ANA A380 operation will be ex Narita only HOWEVER should ANA decide the most effective port would, in fact, be Haneda (and have a few quiet words over a sake or two with the shakers and movers in the bureaucracy and JCAB) then the A380 ban could disappear very quickly.

Also remember ANA have NOT gone out and bought these aircraft through choice knowing exactly what routes they're aiming at, they have been pushed into them to keep vested local parties happy following the Skymark bankruptcy.
NOW they have to work out where the hell to send them and set up costly infrastructure for a three fleet orphan.

I doubt ANA head office is awash with unbridled joy regards the A380, would imagine something quite opposite.
BWTF would I know!

Cheers all.
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