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Angry Air France union protesters storm HQ; Air France execs 'forced to flee'

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Angry Air France union protesters storm HQ; Air France execs 'forced to flee'

Old 5th Oct 2015, 21:40
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Originally Posted by fab777
FYI, AF is back to profit. They just want more, and they want AF pilots to pay for last year's strike, hence voluntary departure schemes for everybody except them being shown the door.
Apologies for the error. Original post deleted.
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Old 5th Oct 2015, 22:03
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AF's Rot: The Forgotten Roots

AF's problem is that it is in a no man's land in terms of market segment.
It neither fits in with a low-cost carrier nor does it offer the opulence of its Gulf competitors.
It will not survive as AF missed its chance when Blanc was running the show.
Blanc foresaw the mess and wanted IT (Air Inter) to become a LCC (Low-Cost Carrier).
With hindsight, it was a big mistake to merge AF and IT...and guess who were IT's advisers?
McKinsey!
McKinsey, remember, destroyed SR (Swissair).
When gangster Spinetta came along, he destroyed IJ (Air Libérté) and IW (AOM).
He also bears the guilt for 3 fatal crashes (1992, 2000, 2009).
When he was in power, his only motto was "La paix sociale à tout prix" which also meant that safety was being compromised...yes because those did not make the grade were being steamrolled onto the flightdeck despite having failed their proficiency tests.
I suspect that SkyTeam will be broken up and a new alliance being formed as AF falls into foreign ownership and this time it will be EK (Emirates).
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Old 5th Oct 2015, 22:09
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I'd join that union.
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Old 5th Oct 2015, 22:48
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FYI, AF is back to profit. They just want more, and they want AF pilots to pay for last year's strike, hence voluntary departure schemes for everybody except them being shown the door.
Well, yes and no.

AF aren't really profitable. Although AF eked out a profit last quarter, they're still down for the year, and are currently forecast to end this year (FY2015) in negative territory.

What's worrisome for AF is that their total loss this year (to date) is actually even worse than last year, while their total cost keeps on increasing. They are currently at a net loss of €232 million for the year compared to last year's loss of €207m over the same time period.

So their operating result is down 25% but employee costs alone is increasing at around 1% (and other unit costs are increasing as well), on a like-for-like comparison.

The only good news was oil prices. But all the savings AF received from lower oil prices were offset by the strong Dollar and declining revenue. Plus they have a large amount of debt they are trying to bring down (currently at €4.5 billion).

I believe they were trying to achieve a 1% cost reduction this year before talks broke down.

Their long-haul business model is in a very difficult position. They are losing money on a lot of routes, which obviously is not sustainable.
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Old 6th Oct 2015, 05:47
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"The whole industry is in a race to the bottom".

It's not just the airline industry but everywhere and driven by customers who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
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Old 6th Oct 2015, 06:16
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This whole doom and gloom business is getting a bit out of hand. The american majors (a significant part of the market) have much improved their terms and conditions. Pay in China (if you can get in) is eye watering. There are jobs being created left right and centre. A major problem in the middle east is a shortage of pilots not pay.

Air France is hardly the poster child for moving with the times. They are in a classic squeeze between the low cost carriers at one end and new more innovative airlines creaming off the top end. If they do not react everyone can see they are in big trouble.

We will see how things develop. But I doubt if the pilot union leaders are particularly happy with how things played out yesterday. By the way I rather doubt that the mob had much to do with the pilots. Although it might be argued that their actions last year lit the fuse.

The vast majority of the job losses are outside the cockpit and they are the ones most upset. Although it might be fair to include a whole generation of young french pilots whose chances of a career with their state carrier look ever less likely.
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Old 6th Oct 2015, 08:48
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Sometimes it does execs good to realise the consequences of their actions.
IMHO they seem a bit remote from reality. A good down to earth old fashioned realisation. But hope the injuries are not serious, just embarrassing.
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Old 6th Oct 2015, 09:52
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I'm with Ice Pack...

As I remember, some years ago, bosses at UPS painted a real doom and gloom scenario where hard times meant pay freezes or pay cuts to ensure survival in the face of strong competition. The same bosses were amazed when pilots offered support to "Brown van drivers" in their effort for a fair pay settlement...."Oh Hell! - no deliveries, no bonus!" Subsequently, they were positively horrified when the drivers stated that they would support the pilots when the company breached it's pilots' pay agreement (AA pay minus some percentage I think, but not honoured when AA pay rose)..... "Oh Hell! - no deliveries, no bonus!). Guess what happened? Both worker groups were awarded their correct, fair, awards and UPS continues to thrive. Solidarity, not greed.

Back in the 80's, the brilliant Alexi Sayle wrote a sketch and poem paralleling the "first" French Revolution ("Let them eat cake" and all that...) with the life of workers in Britain under Thatcher. The last line? - "....and when the revolution comes, just like it did in France, then we'll hang them from the lampposts and we'll watch the ba***rds dance!"

Looks like the "second" one may have already started at AF!!
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Old 6th Oct 2015, 10:20
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What happened in AF does not come from pilots but mostly from ground staff.
in AF they have made tough efforts. Pilots not so much. Flying 60h per month, while others airlines they fly up to 90h (in mine, our pilots fly 90h per month).
Britsh aiways, Lufthansa etc...managed to be more productive. (i am sure that pilots at these airlines fly more than those at AF).
Ground staff in AF have the lowest income while pilots in AF are still very well paid. Flying 100 h more each year would not be a crime for them !

Note : There are enough unemployed pilots in France would be very happy to get a job in AF and bring food on the table.
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Old 6th Oct 2015, 10:45
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Greenlights .

Instead of trying to bring AF and the industry down to the level of your 90+ hour a month , why not try to raise the standard !!

The freaking problem with this "profession" !! That is , if you are a pilot .
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Old 6th Oct 2015, 11:20
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Greenlights .

Instead of trying to bring AF and the industry down to the level of your 90+ hour a month , why not try to raise the standard !!
You want to raise the TCs while 99% of the rest lower them ?
Honestly I just think it is impossible. The 30's Glorious are long gone.

Even in Qatar airways or else, you may have a great income, insurance, (China, M-E etc) you will still fly as much as possible.

I don't say I am against this idea, but it is just not realistic in this world.
Our economy is based on fossil energy, oil, this energy is more and more expensive to extract.
All the problems are based on energy.

and I repeat again :
Note : There are enough unemployed pilots in France would be very happy to get a job in AF and bring food on the table.

Let's be honest one second : if you were in the management, why would you raise standard while you hit a tree plenty of pilots fall ?
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Old 6th Oct 2015, 11:22
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It's not just the airline industry but everywhere and driven by customers who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
What has always perplexed me is why many people are very willing to go and spend £/€ 60000+ or whatever on a new Range Rover or BMW, which will halve in value in 2-3 years & be worth scrap value in a dozen years time but quibble and bitch about a few £'s or €'s on an air ticket.
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Old 6th Oct 2015, 11:34
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And what are KLM and its workers thinking about all this? The feeling is that KLM is plugging the holes created by the losses of AF. Many have mentioned that AF is a lost animal wandering in the jungle wondering what it should be. Others, BA, LH have responded to the market place and are doing well. KLM the same. It is often a better deal to fly with the nationals than with a LOCo. They have adapted. AF are still behind in this. Hence my question about KLM's attitude. They will not want to see their efforts diluted by the squandering of AF.
It is ironic that 15 years, or more, ago AF was technically bankrupt. The then government opposed Brussels "NON" to state aid and forced through a 3 tranche state aid restructuring package. Meanwhile KLM was profitable and independent, as were the other nationals. Somehow or other the fates swung away from KLM and they were forced to find a partner. They'd looked into the books of Alitalia and said NON, but somehow AF managed to cobble together a deal that saw them as the senior partner. How fortunes had changed; and how, now, they've changed again. KLM is doing good, AF bad, but AF is the controlling partner and maybe sucking the good blood out of KLM.
There will others who know more specifics of the finances, but there must be internals stresses.
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Old 6th Oct 2015, 12:11
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Much ado about nothing

All this fuss about to company execs beeing rid off their shirt is just governement propagenda to put pilots to reason.

Nobody was injured contrary to what the press and the government say !

Lets be fair, the journalist, government pets, just mounted this incident so that Air France pilots could be put to reason and accept the lowerage of their T&C.
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Old 6th Oct 2015, 12:23
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You got any evidence for what you just said Baron Rouge? I suspect indeed that this was in part organised to put pressure on the pilots. But are you saying the CGT (large french union apparently identified with this event) was doing this on behalf of the french government?
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Old 6th Oct 2015, 12:38
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this could be a coup, set by anybody , but it is not what I am saying.

Allthough your interpretation is in the range of what the establishment is ready to do any time to curb the workers.

Air France pilots are the most hated workers, envy beeing what drive the word since Cain and Abel.

You should see what the prime minister of France said on the subject ! This is ridiculous... and again nobody was hurt.
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Old 6th Oct 2015, 12:50
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Snoop

The board is still dreaming to only blue eyes pilots, as it was thé case earlier
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Old 6th Oct 2015, 13:34
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Sorry Roulishollandais but that was not very easy to understand. I am guessing you and obviously some others see this whole affair as a conspiracy to bring Air France employees to their knees.

There is a theory that the world can be divided into two groups, those who believe generally in conspiracy and those who believe in screwups (random happenings with no discernable pattern or reason). I think it more likely that yesterday was an unfortunate (but not entirely unpredictable) screwup on all sides, rather than one orchestrated by the powers of capitalism and the french government.
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Old 6th Oct 2015, 16:35
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Lederhosen,
We would llike to see respect of "PACTA SUNT SERVANDA". It is the base of free trade, common and global wealth, peace between sovereign Nations.
Action and Behaviour of M. De Jugnac are the contrary . Not a problem of conspiracy in that brutal confrontation but fight for ego in the board. Unions of pilots could do nothing other than immobility and resistance.
It is difficult to get money with an airline, bad management and poor sensitivity do the things worse.

Last edited by roulishollandais; 8th Oct 2015 at 08:38.
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Old 6th Oct 2015, 20:09
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The Krypton Factor

No, the execs were rehearsing for the Krypton Factor:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXXbXNrpwt8
Compulsory training for every French exec!
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