Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Preliminary Report, Cardig Air 737F hard landing (Papua)

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Preliminary Report, Cardig Air 737F hard landing (Papua)

Old 2nd Oct 2015, 19:46
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,257
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Preliminary Report, Cardig Air 737F hard landing (Papua)

Since the original thread was closed...

PT. Cardig Air, PK–BBY, Boeing 737-300 F Preliminary Report

Some info from the report:
- The 737-300 Freighter had 14,610 kg of cargo

- The Captain was PF, Indonesian, ATPL with 13880 hrs total including 4877 hrs on type

- SIC PM, Korean, CPL with 608 hrs total including 342 hrs on type

- The aircraft touched down 35 meters short of Wamena RWY 15 with a vertical acceleration of 3.68 G

- Wamena weather was 408m SCT, winds 150/15 and visibility > 10 km

- RWY 15 VASI was inop

- FDR analysis found several other hard landings (> 2.1 G) and deviations from stable approach criteria at Wamena within the preceding 107 flight hours of this aircraft
peekay4 is offline  
Old 4th Oct 2015, 01:02
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Frisco, Texas USA
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
3.68g? Holy cow. He had to have broke the concrete.
HalinTexas is offline  
Old 4th Oct 2015, 03:22
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Canada
Age: 37
Posts: 630
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Unstable approaches are norm with all the 737s operating into and out of Wamena and then again back into Sentani.
Seen some pretty "amazing" landings at both ends.

The heavy landings don't surprise me as the runway is incredibly short. They smack it down and then full reverse...
lilflyboy262...2 is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2015, 00:21
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: US
Posts: 2,205
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Same elevation and runway length as KJAC Jackson Hole, WY.
Extra firm landings aren't required.
misd-agin is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2015, 00:28
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seat 1A
Posts: 8,510
Received 58 Likes on 37 Posts
Yep, that's what VASIs are designed for...
Capn Bloggs is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2015, 03:07
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Canada
Age: 37
Posts: 630
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
They have only just extended it in the last 12 months. Used to be quite a bit shorter.
lilflyboy262...2 is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2015, 04:10
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Someone else's acft
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Short runway ?

Please check... SBIL, SBVT, SBRJ, SBNF.

Regular 737-7/8 operations on all of the above. Runway strikes are not common btw !

B737SFP is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2015, 12:12
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Or-E-Gun, USA
Posts: 326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Typo or Real?

The TT and TOT hours listed for the SIC are truly impressive! Excepting SEA and some parts of Africa, FOs with 608 hours of Total Time don't even know where the lav is located. If the numbers are correct, this pilot migrated to the 733 with 266 hours Total Time? Wow! S/he's got to be the sharpest pencil in the whole box. Another way to put it might be, "... yet another Shake & Bake 'pilot.'" Two hundred sixty-six hours has NO business on the flight deck of ANY jet, anywhere. God help us all!
No Fly Zone is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2015, 12:16
  #9 (permalink)  
Gender Faculty Specialist
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Stop being so stupid, it's Sean's turn
Posts: 1,856
Received 3 Likes on 2 Posts
That's bull****. I started flying heavy jets with 160 hours total.
Chesty Morgan is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2015, 12:31
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: London
Posts: 611
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
A320 and B737 F/O's with less than 500TT are very common in the EU - both are entry-level types following primary training, so 250TT would be around the mark for many joining their first operator.
Reverserbucket is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2015, 12:52
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: flying by night
Posts: 500
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Two hundred sixty-six hours has NO business on the flight deck of ANY jet, anywhere. God help us all!

260h cadets have been flying heavy jets in atheist Europe for decades, entirely without God's help.
deptrai is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2015, 13:48
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wor Yerm
Age: 67
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
260 to fly a jet is reasonable. But you need considerably more to fly a piston twin. Now they are both difficult and dangerous, unlike a jet.

PM
Piltdown Man is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2015, 14:10
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,184
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
A320 and B737 F/O's with less than 500TT are very common in the EU - both are entry-level types following primary training, so 250TT would be around the mark for many joining their first operator
What you never hear about of course, is what frequently goes on in the cockpit where the captain is having to be practically a one-man band as the newbie has to hang on to the captain's coat-tails in trying to keep up with what is going on.
Heaven help the people down the back if the captain becomes incapacitated and the 250 hour second in command is on his own. Fortunately, statistics play a great part and the likelihood of that combination happening is remote.

Heavy landings and not a few scary moments are par for the course as the new cadet gets the feel of things for the first 1000 hours as co-pilot.

Fortunately the passengers haven't got a clue what really goes on up front especially as all they see are blokes with gold bars on their shoulders so they must be safe.
Centaurus is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2015, 14:34
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: flying by night
Posts: 500
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
This has been discussed endlessly, and those who aren't familiar with European legacy carrier cadet training often seem to overlook that a) these cadets have passed a highly competitive selection and were selected for their ability b) these training departments often prefer to train pilots from scratch, to control every aspect of training and make sure cadets learn everything correctly from the beginning, rather than trying to fix bad habits those with more hours have already acquired (possibly in some pay-to-fly outfit). The military in virtually every country does exactly the same. Cadet training done right is neither unsafe, nor is it a scheme to cut costs, quite contrarily.

Last edited by deptrai; 5th Oct 2015 at 14:47.
deptrai is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2015, 15:00
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Blighty & Germania.
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Devil

Deptrai:
This has been discussed endlessly, and those who aren't familiar with European legacy carrier cadet training often seem to overlook that a) these cadets have passed a highly competitive selection and were selected for their ability b) these training departments often prefer to train pilots from scratch, to control every aspect of training and make sure cadets learn everything correctly from the beginning, rather than trying to fix bad habits those with more hours have already acquired (possibly in some pay-to-fly outfit). The military in virtually every country does exactly the same. Cadet training done right is neither unsafe, nor is it a scheme to cut costs, quite contrarily.

a) They were selected mostly because of their ability to pay for the training!
b) I agree, but getting rid of bad habits is not too difficult if you have good instructors.
c) One thing missing is that a newbie should be supervised by a training or senior captain. That situation varies from 25hrs (US regional) to 250hrs according to who is running the show and the bean counters.
skyship007 is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2015, 16:13
  #16 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: sunny troon
Posts: 1,483
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Just a pity that CRM was low on the priority list during training. A cultural thing which is difficult to overcome?
Just how do you make junior birdmen speak up when they see something going wrong?
Back to the drawing board......
parkfell is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2015, 16:17
  #17 (permalink)  
Pegase Driver
 
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 73
Posts: 3,658
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I have heard that an well known european airline expanding like hell and using Pay-to-fly had 150h TT MPLs on the right seats of their A320s.
ATC Watcher is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2015, 16:37
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: flying by night
Posts: 500
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
150h TT MPLs is probably not counting sim training. And if it's "expanding" like hell" it's quite likely not a legacy carrier with a tried and tested training program?
deptrai is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2015, 17:30
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: London
Posts: 611
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
"those who aren't familiar with European legacy carrier cadet training often seem to overlook that a) these cadets have passed a highly competitive selection and were selected for their ability b) these training departments often prefer to train pilots from scratch, to control every aspect of training and make sure cadets learn everything correctly from the beginning, rather than trying to fix bad habits those with more hours have already acquired (possibly in some pay-to-fly outfit)."


That's not quite accurate though - not all new EU F/O's have followed a strictly managed training path. They have a CPL/IR MCC and have successfully passed selection and completed a type-rating. Where they trained and how is not really given too much weight.
Reverserbucket is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2015, 18:56
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: flying by night
Posts: 500
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
That's not quite accurate though - not all new EU F/O's have followed a strictly managed training path.

True. And I never claimed all.

a) selection is a check of bankaccount/credit rating of candidate

I could point you to a few places that use different criteria. A few still exist.

Only thing they care about is their pay-check

a contradiction in terms?
deptrai is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.