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Qatar 77W at MIA

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Qatar 77W at MIA

Old 19th Sep 2015, 02:51
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FYI, in over two decades operating from MIA, I've never seen anyone use the T1 intersection departing runway 09 (09R). Never.
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Old 19th Sep 2015, 03:02
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Airbubba, minor point, but Fine Air went down off the west end of 27R on the north side, now known as 26L.
Absolutely right, I had it bass ackwards with my lysdexia.

It was 9R where my small motor '72's were clawing for altitude as well.

I'll try to edit my post with the correction.
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Old 19th Sep 2015, 03:24
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It may have been weak in the climb with those motors, but once airborne, it flew far better than anything built after it except maybe the 747 and Concorde.








757/767/777, close but no cigar. The 737? A grocery shopping cart with one wiggling wheel. Airbus? I doubt it.
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Old 19th Sep 2015, 07:46
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Are QR required to check the TOD in the EFB for the selected runway/intersection against the TOD on the chart? That would have flagged up the 1300m difference.
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Old 19th Sep 2015, 08:57
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OPT check

SOP procedures are to make precalculation of take off performance during preflight with estimated gross weight etc.

Good practice is to set the estimated V2 on MCP.

Also a good practice is to read an other page on OPT called "take off details" with associated runway distances such as engine inop go distance, accelerate stop distance and all engine go distance. That's helps for situation awareness.



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Old 19th Sep 2015, 13:38
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whatsa:

It may have been weak in the climb with those motors, but once airborne, it flew far better than anything built after it except maybe the 747 and Concorde
727? We had both -100 and -200s with the 14,500 thrust engine. Lousy airplane, both models.

727-200 taking off on Runway 8 at ABQ was an "E Ticket" ride. The wallowing at altitude in the -100 was a delight...not.
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Old 19th Sep 2015, 15:52
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Same thing happened to Pan Am in San Fransisco years ago:
The 747 crew screwed up their performance numbers and hit the approach lights on take off. The light structure ripped open 2 hydraulic systems (or was it 3?)
The return and landing was filmed. Hard landing on partial main gear.
Probably on You Tube somewhere now.

Never seen anybody doing intersection take offs on RWY 09 in MIA.
With 31 degrees and light winds it is hard enough to get airborne using full length
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Old 19th Sep 2015, 17:29
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A couple of thoughts ...

1. The A/C knows from which point the EFB has calculated the T.O. performance, and it also knows via GPS where it is when it lines up on the runway ... it would not be too technically difficult to follow the Boeing concept of " not being in the demanded position" ( switch or geographical) and make a light/warning ???

2. I find it disgraceful that there is such obvious and legitimate confusion over the nomenclature used to describe 2 different geographical positions .. a complete bypass of imagination. This despite the facility in the Boeing OPT to check the TODA/TORA used for the calculation and therefore the option to check against NOTAMs and Runway charts ..

3. I feel tremendous sympathy for the pilots in this unfortunate situation .. we have no idea what other operational circumstances added to the confusion. Like for example 10 pages of poorly written NOTAMS which have the tendency to hide important information and highlight trivia .. I wish there was a concerted effort to by ALL agencies to help the flight deck have easy access to vital information and not overload them with poorly documented non vital info i.e. to prioritise before presentation. I am not for a second inferring there is any conspiracy to make our complex pre flight preparation more difficult, more a little understanding of what we are trying to digest.
There are many things ( weather, ETOPS/MNPS, NOTAMs, Performance,Technical, Plotting, operational and Commercial issues, fuel etc) that have to be scrutinised before any ULR flight, and due to FTL's not an excess of time to complete this important task .. We are all on the same side in the constant pursuit of Flight Safety so let us hope that the information that is presented to crews in the briefing room is as free from confusions and "gotcha's" as possible. I cannot imagine how the 4 crew felt when the engineer after his post flight inspection said .. " what happened on the T/O guys ??"

4. It is quite conceivable that the crew were unaware of any impact until they arrived in Qatar .. I would imagine though that their "fundamental orifices" were doing the "half a crown/sixpence" in the first 2 segments of the climb ..

5. I am heartened to see most people empathetic and I hope we can all learn some valuable lessons in whatever role we have to play in the safe dispatch of a commercial flight ...

I.Duke
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Old 19th Sep 2015, 18:26
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" I am heartened to see most people empathetic and I hope we can all learn some valuable lessons in whatever role we have to play in the safe dispatch of a commercial flight ..."


Me too,I've read the whole thread and it's quite heartening to find no slagging off or blame apportioned.This is what I want to discuss in human factors training,not what so and so said to cabin crew member to offend them.
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Old 19th Sep 2015, 18:53
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"When they press the tab RUNWAY for the calculation from the EFB they show this " 09#T1 ". They deemed that was the performance from the intersection T1. This symbol " #T1 " means temporary runway. It is just a NOTAM for the runway 09."

Not familiar with the Boeing onboard EFB. Is there a regular Runway 09 data selection and a RW09#T1 selection choice? With a RW09#T1 selection choice, would be the intention of that choice be to use temporary runway data to correct the standard data for takeoff computation due to Notams uploaded into the EFB?


Thx
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Old 19th Sep 2015, 19:15
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No there is no regular Rwy09 only Rwy09#T1. However there is also no option for Intersection takeoff T1. I calculated with a manual shortening for Rwy09 with T1 and the max TOW would be around 315000kg with Flaps 15.
The all engine Run from full length with Rwy09#T1 (full lenght) would be around 3000m with Flaps 5. It looks like they must have rotated before Vr in order not to end up in the grass
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Old 19th Sep 2015, 19:26
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Same thing happened to Pan Am in San Fransisco years ago:
The 747 crew screwed up their performance numbers and hit the approach lights on take off. The light structure ripped open 2 hydraulic systems (or was it 3?)
The return and landing was filmed. Hard landing on partial main gear.
Probably on You Tube somewhere now.
It is indeed on YouTube:

https://youtu.be/tl_wXfSwRzM

More here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_845

The runway change scenario continues to be a high threat situation in my view. New speeds, new numbers, change it in the box, reselect a departure, reset the heading bugs, recheck the NOTAMS, update the ACARS etc. all while either taxiing or sitting still with an impatient controller and ten planes behind you if you've already left the ramp.

Multiple opportunities to make the chief pilot's hotline.
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Old 19th Sep 2015, 19:36
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Qatar parks on the North side of the terminal in MIA. Most departures from there will use runway 8R which is 10506 feet or 3202 m long.
Only if too heavy for 8R will a crew spend the extra 15 minutes it takes to taxi to rwy 9 which is 13016 feet, 3967 m long.
It would not make sense to me to spend the extra time and fuel taxiing to the longer runway and then use an intersection that gives you less distance than would be available on the closest runway 8R.
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Old 19th Sep 2015, 20:25
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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IMHO this is a real human factor issue rather than a technical one. As has been suggested, with GPS, there could be a technical safety net with a warning when lined up. That should get the juices of the IT & lab boys running. In the meantime the sharp end jockeys need to be sharper. It has been discussed that more technical safety nets leads to possible complacency and lack of gross error checks.
It really is a difficult dilemma to solve.
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Old 19th Sep 2015, 20:35
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Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs
For the same rerason we use derated power... to save time and money. If there is no need to spend another 10 minutes taxiing, especially if you're running late, going from the intersection is a sound idea. You just have to get the numbers right...
Guys,
To someone such as myself looking in from outside your world it appears that not going to the end of the runway in this circumstance is a data entry mistake compounded by the unyealding desire to save time and money oberpowering common sense and caution gained through experience.
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Old 19th Sep 2015, 20:47
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"Guys,
To someone such as myself looking in from outside your world it appears that not going to the end of the runway in this circumstance is a data entry mistake compounded by the unyealding desire to save time and money oberpowering common sense and caution gained through experience. "


Thanks for your input, but respectfully, like all accident/incident threads on PPrune, it would help actual aircrews/engineers/ops personnel/airport personnel and aircraft manufacturer personnel if the enthusiasts would remain in their forum during discussions. Most endless threads become useless for aircrews attempting to learn from others worldwide about events.


So far there is a good discussion here.

Thank you.

Last edited by WhatsaLizad?; 19th Sep 2015 at 21:01.
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Old 19th Sep 2015, 20:47
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Back in the day, computer memory was expensive and CPU speeds slow, which led to all sorts of abbreviations being used to save bytes and CPU cycles. The practice continues, even though memory is now inexpensive and CPU speeds are so high that any amount of interface processing is instantaneous from a user standpoint.

So, maybe one solution is to quit using abbreviations? Just spell out what's meant and avoid a source of confusion.
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Old 19th Sep 2015, 20:52
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"No there is no regular Rwy09 only Rwy09#T1. However there is also no option for Intersection takeoff T1."


If I understand correctly, every runway displayed has the "RwyXXX#T1" displayed similar to the above?


Thanks
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Old 19th Sep 2015, 21:25
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No only if there is a NOTAM there is a temporary appendix #T1, #T2 etc. In MIA there is one for Rwy 09 unfortunately called T1. I suspect the crew made a wrong assumption that this means a takeoff from T1.
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Old 19th Sep 2015, 21:50
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Rat 5-

IMHO this is a real human factor issue rather than a technical one. In the meantime the sharp end jockeys need to be sharper. It has been discussed that more technical safety nets leads to possible complacency and lack of gross error checks.
It really is a difficult dilemma to solve.
Right on. Sad fact is that 4 guys on the flt deck failed to spot the anomaly. QR are/were pretty hot on requiring everybody cross check every minute detail (to the extent of obsession, as B (augmenting) crew would sometimes get very involved, much to the annoyance of A crew trying to get on with the pre-flight job with minimal interference/distraction), so very surprising this one was missed.

However, as we have all seen in our CRM "exercises", all it takes is one strong individual to impose his views, and the rest of the group follows blindly against better judgement. "He knows what he's doing/saying". Human Factors indeed.
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