Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Qatar 77W at MIA

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Qatar 77W at MIA

Old 17th Sep 2015, 15:41
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: London
Posts: 180
Qatar 77W at MIA

Er....


Accident: Qatar B773 at Miami on Sep 15th 2015, struck approach lights on departure

By Simon Hradecky, created Thursday, Sep 17th 2015 14:02Z, last updated Thursday, Sep 17th 2015 14:02Z
A Qatar Airlines Boeing 777-300, registration A7-BAC performing flight QR-778 from Miami,FL (USA) to Doha (Qatar), departed Miami's runway 09 but struck the approach lights runway 27 during departure. Both tower, departure controllers as well as crew maintained routine communication. The aircraft continued to destination for a landing without further incident about 13.5 hours later.

On Sep 17th 2015 the FAA reported the aircraft struck approach lights on departure from Miami and continued to destination. The aircraft received substantial damage to its belly, the occurrence was rated an accident.

Related NOTAMs:
09/160 (A3018/15) - RWY 27 ALS U/S. 16 SEP 18:28 2015 UNTIL 16 OCT 20:00 2015 ESTIMATED. CREATED: 16 SEP 18:28 2015

09/159 (A3017/15) - RWY 27 ALS U/S. 16 SEP 17:55 2015 UNTIL 16 OCT 20:00 2015. CREATED: 16 SEP 17:55 2015

Metars:
KMIA 160353Z COR 09008KT 10SM FEW025 BKN200 28/26 A3009 RMK AO2 RAE06 SLP189 OCNL LTGIC DSNT NE CB DSNT NE P0008 T02830256
KMIA 160253Z 07016G23KT 3SM +RA SCT028CB BKN033 OVC080 28/25 A3010 RMK AO2 RAB53 SLP192 CB OHD MOV NW P0000 60000 T02830250 51014
KMIA 160153Z 10009KT 10SM FEW025 FEW045 SCT150 OVC200 28/25 A3009 RMK AO2 SLP190 T02830250
KMIA 160053Z 04005KT 10SM SCT029 SCT045 SCT150 OVC200 27/24 A3009 RMK AO2 RAE23 SLP188 OCNL LTGIC DSNT NW CB DSNT NW MOV NW P0000 T02720239
KMIA 152353Z 00000KT 7SM +RA SCT025CB BKN085 BKN180 OVC250 27/23 A3006 RMK AO2 RAB34 SLP178 CB NE-SE-SW-W MOV NW P0006 60006 T02670228 10317 20267 58001
KMIA 152253Z 05009G19KT 10SM SCT025 SCT055 BKN180 OVC250 29/22 A3006 RMK AO2 SLP179 CB DSNT SE-SW AND NW-N MOV NW T02890217
KMIA 152153Z 09008KT 10SM SCT033 SCT180 OVC250 31/24 A3006 RMK AO2 SLP179 CB DSNT SE AND W MOV NW T03060239
Lord Bracken is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2015, 15:49
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: San Jose
Posts: 726
That sounds a bit scary, obviously the damage wasn't severe enough to breach the pressure vessel but they didn't necessarily know that at the time.
llondel is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2015, 16:25
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: On the lake
Age: 78
Posts: 664
That sounds a bit scary

I wonder how they assured themselves that the pressure hull or tailplane structure had not been compromised?
twochai is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2015, 16:27
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 35
Were they simply unaware that they had hit anything and only realized it when they arrived at their destination? It seems a bit reckless to proceed with a transatlantic flight knowing that they had struck something and not knowing how much damage it did.
Orestes is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2015, 16:39
  #5 (permalink)  
Resident insomniac
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: N54 58 34 W02 01 21
Age: 75
Posts: 1,859
The collision report was issued two days after the incident, which suggests that the actual collision wasn't noted at the time - a sort of hit-and-run . . .
G-CPTN is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2015, 16:50
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: San Jose
Posts: 726
I wonder when the airport became aware of the broken approach lights. I guess even if that was spotted within the hour, there's still the job of deducing which aircraft hit the structure.
llondel is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2015, 17:04
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Dublin
Posts: 951
there's still the job of deducing which aircraft hit the structure

Apparently they found a note on the outer marker "I bumped your runway lights, please call me if you notice anything. .."
Sober Lark is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2015, 17:15
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,509
2 engine a/c are massively over powered for obvious reasons. MIA-Doha is a long way = heavy a/c, but the performance is calculated assuming losing 50% of thrust, which they did not. Therefore one would expect the a/c to lift off and clear the approach lights of the opposite runway by considerable more than 35'. So what happened & why? To suggest they did not know is one thing, but I'm sure there were more than sweaty palms as they hurtled towards the end of the runway. There is more to this than is being reported here.
Remember the Russian freighter in Aus that cut the grass in the stop-way? ATC were encouraging it to fly. This must have looked something similar. I'm amazed if ATC didn't call for a light inspection and inform the crew. Surely they have tell-tale monitors in the tower for the lights status?
There are also lots of spotters at airports such as MIA. I'm sure there is a video somewhere that will burst on to the scene.
RAT 5 is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2015, 17:22
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 368
Takeoff was on RWY09 from intersection T1 (not full length). That leaves a TODA (Takeoff Distance Available) of ~2600m/8500ft, no way that is sufficient for a -300ER near/at MTOW.

QR has Boeing Class 3 EFBs (electronic flight bags) fitted in all of their 777s, used for takeoff/landing performance, charts etc.

Question is was full length 09 not available? Did they base their numbers off full length and then end up departing from T1??? (Full length 09 is no problem for the -300ER at MTOW).

I doubt they accidentally took off from the wrong intersection (ATC would notice) but most likely they had incorrect performance numbers.

The Boeing OPT tool (used for takeoff/landing perf calcs.) within the EFB, allows crews to enter the intersection and thus knows the distances available from that point for takeoff performance calculations.

However, if they accidentally forgot to enter the intersection T1 during their calculations (big Nono because each crew member is to do a separate calculation and then cross-check, they each have their own EFB)

In any case, near/at MTOW there is no way the OPT would output takeoff data for a RWY09 T1 intersection departure. Instead it would show the maximum takeoff weight from that intersection and the crew would have to re-calculate using that weight to receive the relevant speeds etc.

This could easily have ended a lot worse. I am curious to know if the crew fire walled the thrust levers when they saw the end of the runway approaching.

Note: The first three orange light structures should all be cross shaped and of equal size. They passed over the freeway at barely 100'.


Last edited by B-HKD; 17th Sep 2015 at 17:38.
B-HKD is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2015, 17:27
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,509
Sounds very plausible. I wonder what speed they rotated at? It couldn't have been much over V1. It would have been daylight, yes, so surely they must have realised that the far end was getting closer than normal. Oh wait, that's what we said about the G-1V over-run crash.
RAT 5 is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2015, 17:31
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: FL390
Posts: 149
If it's going to take them a month (NOTAM) to repair the approach lights, it must have been a bit more than a scratch!
737aviator is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2015, 17:36
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,831
Transport aircraft rarely use their full thrust for takeoff. To save wear and tear on the the aircraft a takeoff thrust setting is computed to just meet the performance requirements. At structural weight with a long runway there is often a large reduction in the takeoff thrust setting because full thrust wasn't needed.
MarkerInbound is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2015, 17:58
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 368
Originally Posted by MarkerInbound View Post
Transport aircraft rarely use their full thrust for takeoff. To save wear and tear on the the aircraft a takeoff thrust setting is computed to just meet the performance requirements. At structural weight with a long runway there is often a large reduction in the takeoff thrust setting because full thrust wasn't needed.
Indeed that would have been the case with a full length departure off RWY09.

However, they departed from RWY09 intersection T1. Leaving a TODA of ~2600m/8500ft in which case with APU to Pack, and TOGA, under the prevailing conditions would have allowed for ~325,000kgs. A good 25,000kgs under MTOW and QR778 is consistently going out near/at MTOW.

Im going to say they calculated full length RWY09 with ~3900m TODA available. And ended up taking off with from T1 (fact) ~2600m of pavement available.
B-HKD is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2015, 18:21
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 1601
Posts: 594
Qatar 77W at MIA

A G IV (I think) took out the ILS at STN 2 years ago in thick fog with its mains gear, they claimed not to have noticed either. Closed runway 22 for quite a while I seem to remember until it was ILS capable again
TOWTEAMBASE is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2015, 20:20
  #15 (permalink)  
Resident insomniac
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: N54 58 34 W02 01 21
Age: 75
Posts: 1,859
Sunset at MIA on 15th was 19:25 with nautical Twilight @ 20:15.
Was it cloudy?
Scheduled departure time was 20:20.
Actual departure time was 20:37 - was it already dark?
G-CPTN is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2015, 20:30
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 201
This Emirates mishap and the Jo'berg BA 747 Slat Retract incidents are the 2 'closest to disaster' accidents i can recall for a long time.
I'm sure the NTSB report will be a fun read, but the Aussies did a great job too..
neilki is offline  
Old 18th Sep 2015, 09:50
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Qatar
Posts: 89
I think it will turn out not to be an issue with wrong weights but an issue with the intersection take off versus the selection in the OPT.

Hopefully we will find out in due course.

Firstly I am thankful that this was not more serious, and secondly I feel for all the guys involved. They are not the first and will not be the last to have this sort of incident. Thomson, Thomas Cook, Emirates, BA but to name a few. I just hope lessons can be learned and all 4 stay employed.

Regards
320goat is offline  
Old 18th Sep 2015, 10:32
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Florida and wherever my laptop is
Posts: 1,348
From a comment in Aviation Herald
Accident: Qatar B773 at Miami on Sep 15th 2015, struck approach lights on departure

If the OPT calculate performance from any intersection then the symbol is a slash. It would be like that " 09/T1 " . Devils coincident . T1 = temporary runway in the OPT and the name of the intersection is T1.
Looks like an EFB software Human Factors issue. No symbol used in the software should match real world runway symbology or intersection signage. Asking for a Murphy with that
Ian W is offline  
Old 18th Sep 2015, 12:11
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: southampton,hampshire,england
Posts: 827
Pilot knew where he was....he reported at T1. He was cleared to line up at T1. [This assumes flight was Sep 16 0029-UTC etc.] You can delete this if the time/date/flight are wrong! Tapes available on liveATC.net
055166k is offline  
Old 18th Sep 2015, 12:32
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Canada
Posts: 481
PS & SAFETY LIGHTING-COLLISION QATAR 777 CONDUCTED INTERSECTION DEPARTURE
Lighting-collision Qatar 777 conducted intersection departure

18 SEPTEMBER, 2015 BY: DAVID KAMINSKI-MORROW
Investigations into a Qatar Airways Boeing 777-300ER’s collision with lighting during departure from Miami will examine whether the intersection take-off played a role in the accident.

The seven-year old aircraft (A7-BAC) struck approach lights while taking off from Miami’s runway 9 at around 20:30 local time on 15 September.

It had been conducting a departure to Doha, as flight QR778, from the T1 intersection which would have reduced the runway length by around 30% to some 2,800m (9,190ft).

The aircraft travelled along taxiway S, running parallel to the runway, before being cleared to line up at the intersection.

This clearance was acknowledged by the 777’s crew, according to air-ground communications from Miami tower.

Investigators have not released any details of the weight and performance calculations, or the thrust settings, used for the departure.

All 777-300ERs are powered by General Electric GE90 engines.

There is no immediate evidence that the crew was aware of the lighting collision with the lighting to air traffic control after the departure.

The US FAA says the aircraft continued to its destination without further incident but that subsequent inspection revealed “substantial” damage to the underside of the fuselage.

Meteorological data for Miami at the time of the departure – which would have taken place after sunset – indicates only light winds, and good visibility, although there was rain in the vicinity.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...ection-416895/
Longtimer is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.