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BA 777 on fire in Las Vegas

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BA 777 on fire in Las Vegas

Old 9th Sep 2015, 09:28
  #101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
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Originally Posted by jewitts View Post
Looking at the close-up of the wing/engine damage aftermath, it looks like the main seat of the fire was away from the engine, at or under the wing fairing. Most of the fairing (composite) has burned away completely. The youtube videos also show the fire crews tackling that area first rather than the engine and cowling. I wonder how a 787 (composite fuselage) would perform under the same conditions?
The wing fairing?

Look, again, at the pic in post 53. There's a ruddy great hole - as in, maybe 15ft long - in the forward hold! If I was shown that photo cold, without knowing the story, I would have assumed a bomb had gone off in the forward hold. The fan is substantially intact; it *looks almost as if* one or more disks from the compressor or turbine have departed, and ripped up the fuselage.

As I said, repercussions.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 09:36
  #102 (permalink)  
 
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I just cannot understand the stupidity of people posting on here who somehow feel that carrying bags off in a situation like this is in any way condonable.
I don't see anyone condoning it, just people trying to explain what REAL human behaviour looks like in a random, chaotic, once-in-a-lifetime, terrifying experience. You can quote all the rules in the world and expect Joe Public to read ANO's at bedtime but you aren't being realistic so which camp is the stupid one ?

In the MAN 737 disaster recently anniverseried, the studies showed the majority of survivors were the ones who had an instinct to survive, not the ones with a pass in Air Legislation.

Last edited by Non-Driver; 9th Sep 2015 at 09:36. Reason: typo
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 09:38
  #103 (permalink)  
 
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John_Smith
I think you are absolutely right in what you say.
But (big but) which airline is going to be brave enough to incur adverse PR by bringing such cases to court.
The answer, to my mind, is to carry ALL passenger baggage in the hold.
I check everything and have a small hand bag with shoulder strap in which I carry my passport, ticket, boarding pass, wallet, MP3 player, a 7" tablet computer, mobile phone along with a small power pack that will give both a couple of full charges which keeps them going for my occasional 11 hour direct flights from BKK to LHR. It is 9" x 8" x 6" and sits on my lap during takeoff and landing.
I suppose people hope that they can exit the arrival airport quicker by carrying all their junk in the cabin with them but my experience these days is that once you get through the queue at immigration your checked baggage has usually been unloaded off the carousel and is sitting in a pile waiting for you to collect it.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 09:41
  #104 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2000
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Any similarities with GVIID at IAH 12 Aug 2004?

A GE90 that let go just after take off.

I was on it: a lot less dramatic than this!
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 09:43
  #105 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ExXB View Post
Hand luggage? What is ok to take with you, and what isn't? A ladies handbag, of indeterminate size? A 'personal item' as defined by some airlines? A laptop? A small zip bag? An IATA approved cabin bag?

Is this really a problem?
I think not (as did many passengers apparently) in this case, the plane didn't crash, it caught fire on the runway. Totally different scenario than an accident, where people would have been abandoning their luggage to save their lives.

Time will tell what happened, likely the plane would have extinguished any fire on its own, but the fire truck was right on it before the passengers were evacuating anyway.

As others have said, there was more danger from firetrucks running around like chooks with their hads cut off, running over and killing passengers, than from the fire.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 09:44
  #106 (permalink)  
 
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Maybe I am totally OCD but when I am travellling the mere idea of not having my passport/cards/one or two other vital bits and pieces on my person freaks me out.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 09:47
  #107 (permalink)  
 
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On the issue of people taking bags with them its not right but is it preventable-people react in different ways under extreme stress and no matter what laws are in place may do the 'wrong ' thing. The only way is to reduce the amount of hand baggage on board from the ridiculous amount sometimes seen. In one of the pics on this thread a man in shirt is carrying what looks like a full size case from the burning plane.

I was on board a BA short ahaul flight in the exit row last week and the FA was very diligent about bags not being allowed under those seats much to the chagrin of the American pax sat next to me -he commented different airlines different rules but I am not sure who allows under seat bags in the exit rows in any country so despite seemingly a frequent flyer he was either unaware he was in an exit row or ignorant of the rules.I suppose if I was really nasty i could have called the FA back and said my seat mate isnt a suitable person to be flying in an exit row..

So you cannot stop this behavour but you can try to improve it- re inforce it in the briefing -cut down the ditching bit if you have to as there are seldom any ditchings anyway (or 'landings on water' to use the ultimate oxymoron ) .
Also encourage through publicity , travel agents , internet sites etc to keep your passport with you or, better yet, take a pic and store it on your phone as most people are surgcally attached to their phone and make sure immigration authories are properly briefed to treat accident victims as just that and not terrorists. Even the TSa might understand that the bad guys are unlikely to have peoplel in place on USA bound flights all a round the world 24/7 so someone can slip into the country when an accident happens saying -my passport is on the plane and it got burned.

People panic in spite of endless entreaties from cabin crew, police and Corporal Jones because it is NOT a controllable response -if it was no one would panic-so educate a lot and minimise the risk because you cannot eradicate reactions to risk completely.
PB
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 09:47
  #108 (permalink)  
 
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Hand luggage, shoes etc

I have never had to go down an evacuation slide, and I just don't know how I would react if the cabin was filling with smoke - just like all the others I expect.
I do think however that the dichotomy expressed here between the flyerfolk who want passengers who take bags with them punished in some way, and the analysts of human behaviour who stress the unpredictability of human reactions in a crisis is a somewhat sterile one.
It is probably unrealistic to expect 100% compliance with instructions about bags, but if the proportion of passengers carrying bags, particularly heavy ones from overhead lockers, could be minimised, that would surely help.
This might be achieved if passengers were "nudged" by information and advice at all stages of the booking, check in and briefing procedures to think of cabin baggage in two categories. A passport, a phone, money,possibly medication, possibly a laptop are vital and irreplaceable to many people (and the difficulties and delays of continuing a journey without documentation have already been highlighted) and should really be kept with you in the seat. A change of clothes, toiletries, duty frees and all the other stuff in the overhead locker is much more easily replaceable.
I also think I remember some years ago thefts from overhead locker luggage, which is another reason for keeping your valuables as close as possible.
Although no bags/possessions at all will remain the counsel of perfection, implying that a very small bag (handbag/briefcase size) can be taken with you might be the best pragmatic option.
The suggestion that shoes should not be removed until seat belt signs are off seems eminently sensible, but I haven't come across that on any airline I have used.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 09:47
  #109 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
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Ranger One:
Look, again, at the pic in post 53. There's a ruddy great hole - as in, maybe 15ft long - in the forward hold! If I was shown that photo cold, without knowing the story, I would have assumed a bomb had gone off in the forward hold. The fan is substantially intact; it *looks almost as if* one or more disks from the compressor or turbine have departed, and ripped up the fuselage.
There's a clearer (daylight) pic of the hold damage here (telegraph.co.uk)
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 09:49
  #110 (permalink)  
 
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I would respectfully suggest that 'hand luggage' should be just that - a bag you can carry on your lap or between your feet, nothing requiring stowage in an overhead locker. Certainly not a wheeled suitcase. Nothing that could injure anyone else by the sheer weight of it on an evac chute.


Seeing the size of some of the luggage in that photo has shocked me.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 09:51
  #111 (permalink)  
 
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I am delighted the Flight and Cabin Crew performed as we would all hope to do in this nasty situation .. and that everyone evacuated without serious injury ..

The close up photo of the fire damage left me with feelings of dread if this had happened after V1, and heavy weight fire fighting facilities were not immediately available ...

The last 2 paragraphs of LLuccifer's comment sadly carry some weight, as history has shown that after incidents like this people have been left "high and dry" .... wear your shoes until after take off and have your wallet and passport in your pocket ...

I.Duke
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 09:54
  #112 (permalink)  
 
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There's a clearer (daylight) pic of the hold damage
Where? I can see a picture showing that the wing/body fairing has caught fire and disappeared, I cannot see into the freight hold (but it is dark in there)
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 09:57
  #113 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Probably not a factor in this case but when will airlines switch to green exit signs?
Red means danger, donít go. So 25 years ago the world began adopting ISOís green running man exit sign. In Australia only places where red exit signs are still allowed is in the Senate chamber and on aircraft!
Jetstarís 787s are an honourable exception Ė their greatest safety improvement may well be green exit signs.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 09:59
  #114 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
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Hand Luggage

Perhaps one possible solution here is to instruct passengers to ensure absolutely essential items (wallet, passport, medications) are carried in trouser/shirt pockets or very small purse/pouch from the moment they board.

Evacuation drills could be practiced with passengers carrying such items in order to verify they don't impede flow.

If tests are successful, suitable pouches could then be sold at airport terminals, and the evacuation rules slightly relaxed to allow passengers to exit with just this small item.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 10:00
  #115 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
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I very rarely comment on these forums as I am not a pilot, I'm a safety/risk practitioner; however I have been involved in an emergency evacuation of a Dash-8 plane for a fire in the hold at BHD.

When the evacuation command came my partner and I were out of the plane PDQ, however I had to literally force the people in the row in front of me to evacuate as they were trying to retrieve their luggage.

In the airport where we were all corralled I noticed about a dozen passengers had luggage. I asked them in a non-threatening manner "why did you take your luggage?". Most people didn't really have a reason, they just did it instinctively. Two people said that they were "queuing to evacuate" so used the time to get their luggage. One said it was under the seat so it was a bit of an obstruction so they took it with them.

I would suggest that there is a PA announcement that state "Evacuate - Leave your luggage" that repeats in such circumstances.

As an aside, the fire was a false alarm, and it took nearly two hours to retrieve our hand luggage from the aircraft and that took a lot of persuasion from us as most of us had house keys, car keys etc in our hand luggage and couldn't get home without it. They originally told us we couldn't get them until the next day.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 10:02
  #116 (permalink)  
 
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...which airline is going to be brave enough to incur adverse PR by bringing such cases to court.
It shouldn't be the airline. A law has been broken. It should be the police.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 10:04
  #117 (permalink)  
 
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OK that pic is clearer; let's paste it directly into the thread so we all can see it. I agree; impossible to guess at this stage how much is down to fire and how much is down to impact. But at the extreme right side it's clear the engine cowling is severely disrupted, and blown outwards directly towards the damaged area.

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Old 9th Sep 2015, 10:06
  #118 (permalink)  
 
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To people saying you are looking at the forward hold in the pictures, you are not.
You are looking at the composite wing to body fairings, or what is left of them.
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Old 9th Sep 2015, 10:18
  #119 (permalink)  
 
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Well for a wee comparison...

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Old 9th Sep 2015, 10:31
  #120 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
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looking at that photo - likely structural integrity lost in crucial area of airframe/wing fixing zone

I'm no engineer and I'm happy to be schooled by some professionals

but, I'd speculate a write off by Mr Airline boss and the Loss adjuster??
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