BA 777 on fire in Las Vegas
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To all the hand luggage apologists, I beg you to listen to the professionals who have posted on this site. However smart, fit and agile you think you are, if you start picking up your stuff and opening overhead lockers, others will copy you.
Do not take any hand luggage with you. No exceptions.
Do not take any hand luggage with you. No exceptions.
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Stopping passengers taking their bags is a matter of raising awareness beforehand, so that the majority of passengers know about it, and will not be surprised when asked to do so in a moment of extreme stress. If old Granny Stumbleshoes wants to take her knitting from the overhead locker or Mr Smartarse Executive feels his computer is more important than a person at the back of the queue, then neither of them are going to give in quietly when the cabin staff tell them to leave their stuff and get out and under those circumstances it makes sense not to argue since it will waste time. But if all passengers were made aware right from the outset that they might be required to leave everything, and the reason why, then we might at last start to make an impact on the problem. As has been said many times, you can’t predict what people will do in panic, but the more familiar and consistent the message, the more likely it will be heeded. At the moment there isn’t any message.
Join Date: Mar 2011
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One handy tip for travelling.
Before departure scan all documents; passport, driving license, travel tickets, traveler's cheques, credit cards etc and email them to your own Gmail account.
You can then retrieve them nearly instantly anywhere in the world on any computer or smartphone.
Perfect when you lose anything through any circumstances.
Before departure scan all documents; passport, driving license, travel tickets, traveler's cheques, credit cards etc and email them to your own Gmail account.
You can then retrieve them nearly instantly anywhere in the world on any computer or smartphone.
Perfect when you lose anything through any circumstances.
Join Date: Sep 2011
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Carry on baggage/ Marketing.
One of The reasons why so much carry on is carried is because, in this hurry up world, the delivery of hold baggage to the reclaim is inordinately long. The carrier I worked for had targets of 1st bag on the belt within 15mins of blocks, last, 40 mins. The target for compliance was 90% and we were close to meeting this most of the time.
Other reasons include mishandled baggage and the fear of your bag not arriving. With the advent of reconciliations systems, the mishandling of point to point baggage is remarkably low - our carrier averaged around 1.5 bags per 1000 pax. BUT...transfer baggage is a different matter - usually becuase, wrongly, many transferring carriers put low priority to these bags since the problem of pax confrontation is at a different airport!
So... With this in mind .... Many carriers encouraged (marketed) the acceptance of carry-on baggage sometimes advertising that their allowance was 2 bags providing you could lift them into the overhead lockers without assistance.
The suggestions of locking overheads would certainly reduce the thoughtless idiot blocking the aisle for other escaping passengers but on a risk/cost analysis would probably reject the upgrade required. I liked the suggestion that those who had carry on with them on the ground after the evacuation should be prosecuted but that would be unlikely to happen which is a shame.
It is never to be forgotten that cabin crew are not just glorified waiters/ waitresses. The actions of these and the cockpit crew appear to have been exemplary
Other reasons include mishandled baggage and the fear of your bag not arriving. With the advent of reconciliations systems, the mishandling of point to point baggage is remarkably low - our carrier averaged around 1.5 bags per 1000 pax. BUT...transfer baggage is a different matter - usually becuase, wrongly, many transferring carriers put low priority to these bags since the problem of pax confrontation is at a different airport!
So... With this in mind .... Many carriers encouraged (marketed) the acceptance of carry-on baggage sometimes advertising that their allowance was 2 bags providing you could lift them into the overhead lockers without assistance.
The suggestions of locking overheads would certainly reduce the thoughtless idiot blocking the aisle for other escaping passengers but on a risk/cost analysis would probably reject the upgrade required. I liked the suggestion that those who had carry on with them on the ground after the evacuation should be prosecuted but that would be unlikely to happen which is a shame.
It is never to be forgotten that cabin crew are not just glorified waiters/ waitresses. The actions of these and the cockpit crew appear to have been exemplary
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@ Eclectic
I have them all scanned and stored in Dropbox (other cloud services are available) for that purpose. I can access all of the documentation from any smartphone or an internet terminal at the airport/hospital/police station.
Misty.
I have them all scanned and stored in Dropbox (other cloud services are available) for that purpose. I can access all of the documentation from any smartphone or an internet terminal at the airport/hospital/police station.
Misty.
There is little to be gained by wringing one's hands and blaming the passengers for being in the wrong place at the wrong time and having to think logically.
The issue is to find out what happened and contributing factors so as to continue to have a safe outcome in spite of the passengers individual actions.
I keep reading the many pages in this thread just to find out from those on-scene what happened to the plane.
The issue is to find out what happened and contributing factors so as to continue to have a safe outcome in spite of the passengers individual actions.
I keep reading the many pages in this thread just to find out from those on-scene what happened to the plane.
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Some after incident passenger reaction here including reports of what passengers had left behind and what appears to be some lack of communication from BA in the immediate aftermath. Easy to criticise in a fast moving situation as we don't know what else was going on.
Passengers stranded after plane fire - Story | Southern Nevada - Las Vegas, North Las Vegas, Henderson, Boulder City | LasVegasNow | KLAS-TV
Anyway, you can see from the picture in post 123 that the aircraft is partially off the paved surface and from the FR24 data released, it seems to have stopped at approx 40 degree to the centreline. That's no criticism of the crew by the way; they did a magnificent job of stopping and getting everyone out.
What this does show is the importance of having the appropriate cleared and graded area at the runway edges. Some big international airports I've been to have uncovered pits, trenches and god knows what in this area - all traps for both off piste aircraft or evacuating passengers.
In this case in the desert, these surfaces are strong enough to support the aircraft weight, but notice how the pax out of Door 4L are able to get well away without having to negotiate any obstructions. Passengers from the right hand side were evacuating onto the runway. And well done to the cabin crew who can be seen marshalling evacuated passengers away from the scene to safer locations.
Top job to the whole crew for doing their job in a most professional way - when it mattered.
Passengers stranded after plane fire - Story | Southern Nevada - Las Vegas, North Las Vegas, Henderson, Boulder City | LasVegasNow | KLAS-TV
Anyway, you can see from the picture in post 123 that the aircraft is partially off the paved surface and from the FR24 data released, it seems to have stopped at approx 40 degree to the centreline. That's no criticism of the crew by the way; they did a magnificent job of stopping and getting everyone out.
What this does show is the importance of having the appropriate cleared and graded area at the runway edges. Some big international airports I've been to have uncovered pits, trenches and god knows what in this area - all traps for both off piste aircraft or evacuating passengers.
In this case in the desert, these surfaces are strong enough to support the aircraft weight, but notice how the pax out of Door 4L are able to get well away without having to negotiate any obstructions. Passengers from the right hand side were evacuating onto the runway. And well done to the cabin crew who can be seen marshalling evacuated passengers away from the scene to safer locations.
Top job to the whole crew for doing their job in a most professional way - when it mattered.
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...I'm just interested in this gap between announcing stop, and calling for fire service.
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Ho.In any case, it's not a binary choice between that jacket or carrying a bag. People can make their own minds up as to what to carry in terms of passport/wallet/nothing and how to carry it. Obviously some of them get it wrong, but most don't.
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One handy tip for travelling.
Before departure scan all documents; passport, driving license, travel tickets, traveler's cheques, credit cards etc and email them to your own Gmail account.
You can then retrieve them nearly instantly anywhere in the world on any computer or smartphone.
Before departure scan all documents; passport, driving license, travel tickets, traveler's cheques, credit cards etc and email them to your own Gmail account.
You can then retrieve them nearly instantly anywhere in the world on any computer or smartphone.
As some idea of the size of bags removed from a plane on fire with smoke in the cabin (and not to judge, to inform);
Join Date: Jan 2013
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Taking cabin baggage is not a considered decision
There are many comments treating the decision by some passengers to take baggage during evacuation as if this is a considered decision by the passengers, if this was the case it would be not just stupid but reckless.
The reality however is that passengers will be surprised and shocked. I would expect many of them to be confused and in confusion fall back onto habitual patterns of behaviour however inappropriate.
There shoudl be research into how best to alleviate this problem. Prosecution should only be considered if the research shows it would make a significant difference. Personally I think improved briefing/communications would work better but the point is to research it. If prosecutions are made then the chances are that those prosecuted are simply confused and disorientated rather than deliberately cuplable. I could accept this if it can be show that prosecuting what are effectively victims will reduce further deaths but only if that can be shown. I think the morality of prosecution is dubious even in that case.
The reality however is that passengers will be surprised and shocked. I would expect many of them to be confused and in confusion fall back onto habitual patterns of behaviour however inappropriate.
There shoudl be research into how best to alleviate this problem. Prosecution should only be considered if the research shows it would make a significant difference. Personally I think improved briefing/communications would work better but the point is to research it. If prosecutions are made then the chances are that those prosecuted are simply confused and disorientated rather than deliberately cuplable. I could accept this if it can be show that prosecuting what are effectively victims will reduce further deaths but only if that can be shown. I think the morality of prosecution is dubious even in that case.
What this does show is the importance of having the appropriate cleared and graded area at the runway edges. Some big international airports I've been to have uncovered pits, trenches and god knows what in this area - all traps for both off piste aircraft or evacuating passengers.
Whether to "skew" or not as you stop for an engine fire with an X-wind is becoming more of a briefing item for us, especially on the more long bodied -300, and most especially at airports with less benign runway shoulders....At some places putting in a minor turn as you stop is going to put those going down slides at 5L or 5R into a storm drain, or worse...personally I'd be grateful to just get stopped and doubt I'd have the capacity to do much else..
.As for the comments about 15 seconds between "stopping" and the "mayday"...
very much
Not sure if this has already been mentioned but I was surprised to see the escape chutes on the port side (side of the engine fire) being deployed. Passengers escaping into a danger area (engine fire, fire service vehicles manoeuvring etc).
I don't think anyone is actually arguing that carrying luggage during an emergency evacuation is anything but wrong. However I think the psychology bears some examination.
There's almost certainly a distinction in many passengers' minds which may arise in these situations. If the threat is plainly visible and imminent - say a fire inside the cabin - I doubt if many people would prioritise their spare undies over an immediate swift exit, unencumbered. However if the evacuation is being initiated in response to factors known only to the flight crew and not obvious, I suspect many passengers would think "may as well..." It's a fact of human psychology that we are inclined to think that bad outcomes - like death - always happen to someone else.
Personally I've always carried the absolute essentials on my person rather than in cabin baggage and can't imagine why anyone would do otherwise. As for the issue of excessive cabin baggage it infuriates me as much as it does professionals in the industry. However having had hold baggage lost five times (on one occasion permanently) it's hard to resist the temptation to carry on sufficient semi-essentials to cover the possibility.
Given the gravity of a situation requiring emergency evacuation, I'm surprised that it's not accompanied by PA instructions (language limitations accepted) forcefully ordering appropriate procedures - like NO baggage. It'd have to help, I'd have thought.
There's almost certainly a distinction in many passengers' minds which may arise in these situations. If the threat is plainly visible and imminent - say a fire inside the cabin - I doubt if many people would prioritise their spare undies over an immediate swift exit, unencumbered. However if the evacuation is being initiated in response to factors known only to the flight crew and not obvious, I suspect many passengers would think "may as well..." It's a fact of human psychology that we are inclined to think that bad outcomes - like death - always happen to someone else.
Personally I've always carried the absolute essentials on my person rather than in cabin baggage and can't imagine why anyone would do otherwise. As for the issue of excessive cabin baggage it infuriates me as much as it does professionals in the industry. However having had hold baggage lost five times (on one occasion permanently) it's hard to resist the temptation to carry on sufficient semi-essentials to cover the possibility.
Given the gravity of a situation requiring emergency evacuation, I'm surprised that it's not accompanied by PA instructions (language limitations accepted) forcefully ordering appropriate procedures - like NO baggage. It'd have to help, I'd have thought.
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Rotor disk failure? Maybe not
A signature of a disc burst is the creation of several projectiles - usually three - flying in diverging paths in the plane of rotation; the obvious corollary is three holes in the case and cowl.
I see no holes in the outboard side of the cowl.
So - I'm beginning to suspect a pressure vessel burst. The big fans run at very high pressure ratio, and design criteria take the pressures and temperatures and cyclic fatigue into account. Then we have the odd phenomenon of a berserk burner weakening the pressure vessel through local overheating, leading to a blowout (e.g. Kegworth)
Just surveying the available evidence...
I see no holes in the outboard side of the cowl.
So - I'm beginning to suspect a pressure vessel burst. The big fans run at very high pressure ratio, and design criteria take the pressures and temperatures and cyclic fatigue into account. Then we have the odd phenomenon of a berserk burner weakening the pressure vessel through local overheating, leading to a blowout (e.g. Kegworth)
Just surveying the available evidence...
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Does anybody sane on here actually believe that a prosecution against a passenger reacting to an emergency by taking their bag could possibly be made to stick?
Apart from anything else, there would obviously have to be exceptions.
There would be people who needed inhalers or particular drugs for a start.
There would be evacuations in Northern Norway in -35C where a coat would be a good idea.
Apart from anything else, there would obviously have to be exceptions.
There would be people who needed inhalers or particular drugs for a start.
There would be evacuations in Northern Norway in -35C where a coat would be a good idea.
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Getting Essential Safety Information Across to Pax ...
To those criticising humorous / informal flight safety demonstrations:
There is a major problem with strictly formal flight safety demos. Whilst they tick the legal boxes, the sad reality is that many pax simply don't engage with them. Especially at unsociable hours. They are perceived as dry, boring and - literally - a turn-off. Seen 'em before. They simply do not grab attention.
The ultimate objective of a safety demo must be to convey crucial life-saving information to passengers; ticking the legal requirement boxes alone is not sufficient. To this end, there is clear evidence that less formal / humorous flight safety demos DO SUCCEED in drawing and retaining the attention of passengers. The Southwest briefings cited in an earlier post draw laughs but do successfully get the message across. A droning robotic delivery keeps one's attention like the small-print on an insurance policy.
As a piece of anec***al evidence, I contrast the attention paid to the (formal) flight safety demo by passengers aboard a recent flight by a familiar scheduled leisure airline - more than half the pax appeared to take no notice whatsoever - and that noted aboard the return flight. The return flight was operated by CONDOR FLUGDIENST, a German charter airline forming part of the Thomas Cook Group. Their safety video is available for viewing on Youtube in both German and English language versions. Take a look. It is an outstanding piece of engaging film-making with a serious intent. Whilst it is humorous and very entertaining, it achieved almost 100% engagement with the pax on the flight I used. And that is the whole point. It got the message across. Those calling for (dry) formal demos / videos only have it absolutely wrong. Too many pax will totally ignore them.
I'm flying a similar trip next week - out from MAN with a regular leisure carrier, back to MAN with CFG. I will take careful note of the passenger attention to the respective safety videos. I fully expect that the humorous one will again emerge the clear winner.
EDIT: Question: Any idea why site software has censored the word A - N - E - C - D - O - T - A - L ? What am I missing here?
There is a major problem with strictly formal flight safety demos. Whilst they tick the legal boxes, the sad reality is that many pax simply don't engage with them. Especially at unsociable hours. They are perceived as dry, boring and - literally - a turn-off. Seen 'em before. They simply do not grab attention.
The ultimate objective of a safety demo must be to convey crucial life-saving information to passengers; ticking the legal requirement boxes alone is not sufficient. To this end, there is clear evidence that less formal / humorous flight safety demos DO SUCCEED in drawing and retaining the attention of passengers. The Southwest briefings cited in an earlier post draw laughs but do successfully get the message across. A droning robotic delivery keeps one's attention like the small-print on an insurance policy.
As a piece of anec***al evidence, I contrast the attention paid to the (formal) flight safety demo by passengers aboard a recent flight by a familiar scheduled leisure airline - more than half the pax appeared to take no notice whatsoever - and that noted aboard the return flight. The return flight was operated by CONDOR FLUGDIENST, a German charter airline forming part of the Thomas Cook Group. Their safety video is available for viewing on Youtube in both German and English language versions. Take a look. It is an outstanding piece of engaging film-making with a serious intent. Whilst it is humorous and very entertaining, it achieved almost 100% engagement with the pax on the flight I used. And that is the whole point. It got the message across. Those calling for (dry) formal demos / videos only have it absolutely wrong. Too many pax will totally ignore them.
I'm flying a similar trip next week - out from MAN with a regular leisure carrier, back to MAN with CFG. I will take careful note of the passenger attention to the respective safety videos. I fully expect that the humorous one will again emerge the clear winner.
EDIT: Question: Any idea why site software has censored the word A - N - E - C - D - O - T - A - L ? What am I missing here?
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why did they not ask for fire services in that first call?
The fire warning will cause the 'Stop' call to be made then there is a pause for all three pilots to confirm the indications and identify the potential cause. Once the cause has been established then the appropriate call can be made.
The delay is to ascertain exactly the severity of the situation as putting your passengers out of the aircraft, down the slides onto an active, busy airfield isn't a decision that any Captain would take lightly. Once the initial 'alert' call has been made and the fire verified then the second call would be made.
Simple answer never rush!
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Human nature of a imminent threat has a lot to do with passengers taking their baggage or not. I'm sure some didn't know how serious the situation was at the time . A simple leave all carry on bags after the evacuation order would help as well as convey the serious situation. The industry as a whole has to do more to stress the importance of leaving baggage behind during a evacuation order .
Last edited by tlbrown350; 9th Sep 2015 at 15:26.
Just reviewing the comments and available evidence it would appear that:
Those who were trained professionals in this incident (on the flight deck, in the cabin, in ATC and the rescue guys) all acted in a highly professional manner and all contributed to stopped this incident becoming a tragedy.
Some of those who were not trained (ie the pax) acted irrationally because of selfishness or lack of awareness. My conclusion - the bags issue is an industry problem and training/education is the only answer.
Those who were trained professionals in this incident (on the flight deck, in the cabin, in ATC and the rescue guys) all acted in a highly professional manner and all contributed to stopped this incident becoming a tragedy.
Some of those who were not trained (ie the pax) acted irrationally because of selfishness or lack of awareness. My conclusion - the bags issue is an industry problem and training/education is the only answer.
