Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

BA 777 on fire in Las Vegas

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

BA 777 on fire in Las Vegas

Old 10th Sep 2015, 17:23
  #321 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,432
13 Checklists have memory items. Most of these have 1 or 2 lines
eg ABORTED ENGINE START
Fuel Control Switch ... Cutoff
Wow, that's still a lot more memory items than we use.

I think a lot of this recent minimalist stuff comes from Boeing, our evac checklist has no memory items for example. Still, you are certainly expected to know what to do.

Thanks.
Airbubba is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 17:46
  #322 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,636
and you may find authorities will only accept originals
Sierra

In the UK they will let a UK citizen back in with the passport number (i know from experience)

Great to see the cockpit crew came out with their hats. I hope the Captain takes one more opportunity to fly but if not have a happy retirement

Last edited by Mr Angry from Purley; 10th Sep 2015 at 17:50. Reason: added more
Mr Angry from Purley is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 17:51
  #323 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: London
Posts: 422
Originally Posted by llondel View Post
In the enhanced picture in this comment is there a missing fan blade in the 3 o'clock position?

Edit: No it isn't, it's just a careful coincidence of shadow relative to the blade positioning. The Daily Mail version of the picture is much clearer.
Yes - trick of the light - you can just about count all 22.
stagger is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 17:52
  #324 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Yorkshire
Age: 61
Posts: 8
With reference to the effect of wind, I strongly suggest you read this AAIB report;

https://assets.digital.cabinet-offic...988_G-BGJL.pdf

Section 2.6.1.2 Paragraph 4 explains the effect of a light crosswind on spreading an engine fire over and under the fuselage, exacerbating the problem. Turning the aircraft, if runway width permits for your type, should always be considered.

Susier, thank you for your input but I think you misunderstood me.

Last edited by CaptainX; 10th Sep 2015 at 18:03. Reason: Typo
CaptainX is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 18:03
  #325 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 128
NTSB Issues Update on the British Airways Engine Fire at Las Vegas
Sept. 10, 2015

As part of its ongoing investigation into Tuesday’s engine fire that occurred during takeoff of British Airways flight 2276, a Boeing 777, at McCarran International Airport (LAS), the NTSB today released the following investigative update.

NTSB investigators arrived on scene Wednesday morning local time to begin the on-scene investigation. The NTSB investigative team includes experts in powerplants, airplane systems, and fire. The following groups will be organized: powerplants, airworthiness (airplane structure, systems, and fire), flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder.

Parties to the NTSB investigation are the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), The Boeing Company, and GE Aviation. In accordance with the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) Annex 13, the UK Air Accidents Investigations Branch (AAIB), as the State of the Operator, has appointed an accredited representative to assist the investigation. The UK accredited representative has initially appointed British Airways and the UK Civil Aviation Authority as technical advisors.

The following are the initial factual findings:

• British Airways flight 2276, a Boeing 777-200ER, equipped with two GE90-85B engines, registration G-VIIO, was operating under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 129 and was enroute to London - Gatwick Airport (LGW), Horley, England.

• There were 157 passengers, including 1 lap child, and 13 crew members on board. There were several minor injuries as a result of the evacuation (mostly abrasions).

• The flight data recorder, cockpit voice recorder and quick access recorder have arrived at the NTSB Vehicle Recorder Laboratory and are currently being downloaded.

• On Tuesday evening, the airplane was photographed and the runway debris documented by FAA and airport officials before airplane was towed to secluded area of the airport (in order to reopen the runway).

• Initial examination of the left engine revealed multiple breaches of the engine case in the area around the high pressure compressor.

• Examination of the material recovered from runway found several pieces of the high pressure compressor spool (approximately 7-8 inches in length).

• Initial examination of the airplane by NTSB revealed that the left engine and pylon, left fuselage structure and inboard left wing airplane were substantially damaged by the fire. This damage will be documented over the next several days.

The powerplants and airworthiness groups will continue documenting the airplane and engine over the next several days. It is anticipate that once the tooling is in place, the left engine will be removed and shipped to a facility to conduct a full teardown.
fokkerjet is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 18:40
  #326 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Florida and wherever my laptop is
Posts: 1,346
Originally Posted by Basil View Post
But, unless you are wearing your jacket, you will. Your CRIMINAL act could kill people.
The cabin crew have, with delegated authority from the Pilot in Command, told you that, in the event of an evacuation, you MUST take nothing with you.
Failure to comply is a breach of the Air Navigation Order and, therefore, a criminal offence.
I don't think some on here have much idea of the legal authority granted to the PiC. We don't throw it around but the CAA may choose to do so and you may go to jail.
I realize that I fly as SLF only around 4 times a week, but none of the safety briefings I have received mention bags and accoutrements during an emergency evacuation. That includes jokey right on videos and bored flight attendants reading them out. It may be that some airlines are different - BA has a cartoon video with a throw away line saying "take nothing with you" is that a legal order from a flight attendant?

These threats of drawing and quartering pax who have taken their bags - or in this case jacket - with them are like photo speed traps. They do not prevent the loss of safety they are punitive after the fact. This might provide some satisfaction for the armchair critics but it does not, and will not solve the problem.

What is needed is a standard evacuation pouch/money belt that pax should have with them at all times for emergency evacuation, to contain documents and some small items. They should be told - before any emergency arises - that apart from what they are wearing the pouch is all they are allowed to take from the aircraft in an emergency.
Ian W is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 19:01
  #327 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: York
Posts: 685
Airbubba

"Wow, that's still a lot more memory items than we use."

As far as I'm aware, in recent years BA have re-aligned themselves with the equipment manufacturer's methods of operating. 'Back to Boeing' and similarly for Airbus.

So if you have fewer memory drills, perhaps it's because you are deviating from the manufacturer's recommendations? (Or you aren't flying Airbus/Boeing?)
4468 is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 19:40
  #328 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: se england
Posts: 1,170
from what I have seen on TV about FA training the emergency evac drill is avery noisy process with FA screaming and shouting evacuate . do this do that. Seems entirely sensible to me as confused /scared pax will from human nature respond to loud authoritative commands when they are in a state of shock.

Since people in shock or panic do not act rationally you could have a death sentence for taking bags with you and some people would still do it . So on top of mandatory changes to stupid policies and marketing to incentivise taking big bags on board lets have the usually last regulators mandate no carry-ons above a certain size and NO charging for hold baggage except traditional excess charges.
Couple that to improved safety briefings to de emphasise ditching (sorry -landing on water ) and prioritise on land evacs and not taking baggage etc mirrored in safety card or seat back slogans. ND finally crew evac training where I think they are dead right to yell at pax to 'bully' them into acting and moving to just ad Take no bags Take no bags. And I bet you would get a massive improvement -and it costs largely nothing and avoids the idea of prosecuting people who can just claim that
1)I was frightened and panicked
2 ) No one told me not to-or I didn't hear them.

PB
pax britanica is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 19:42
  #329 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 2
Memory items

Whip,
With respect, Emergency Evacuation is not a memory item on the B777 in BA.
Check your QRH Checklist Instructions. It is a reference checklist.
notsojumboanymore is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 20:01
  #330 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: uk
Posts: 802
Originally Posted by highflyer40 View Post
Where do you get anything about immigration? That article states they are "stranded" in a hotel. Some without even shoes... So guess immigration was quite good in this case. They let people with no passports into the city.
I may not have made it clear that I was referring to other incidents as wwll as this one. See for instance this post in this thread http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post9110612

Note that this flight was outbound so immigration may have been less of an issue, but either way those pax aren't going anywhere until passports are returned or replaced, whilst those who took their bags could take another flight out immediately if they needed to.
infrequentflyer789 is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 20:05
  #331 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 18
It surprises me that only 4 kts crosswind has that effect on the direction of fire. Still wondering if there is something like a fuelspray directing the flames at the hull.
Even light winds can be enough to direct fire on unobstructed/open airfields as past incidents have shown. It may not seem significant, but in a open environment it is.
tlbrown350 is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 20:07
  #332 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Albuquerque USA
Posts: 170
HPC disintegration detected

from the NTSB investigative update as posted here by fokkerjet
...
• Initial examination of the left engine revealed multiple breaches of the engine case in the area around the high pressure compressor.

• Examination of the material recovered from runway found several pieces of the high pressure compressor spool (approximately 7-8 inches in length).
...
Here is a link to a detailed diagram of a GE90. The variant is the 115, so some details and proportions will differ from the accident flight. But nonprofessionals unfamiliar with basic turbofan structure designations may find it helpful.

http://lyle.smu.edu/propulsion/Pages.../turbofan2.jpe

As lomapaseo suggested above, I think the biggest outstanding question is how this failure resulted in the release of so much fuel.

Last edited by archae86; 10th Sep 2015 at 20:09. Reason: edited to include permalink to fokkerjet's post
archae86 is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 20:16
  #333 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The sky
Posts: 218
I'm not sure if it's been picked up on this thread or in the media, but that calm an authoritative voice on the radio is almost certainly not that of the captain.

There's a video floating around of the flight crew being ambushed by a news crew while climbing into a taxi. The SFO's accent seems familiar......
Locked door is online now  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 20:21
  #334 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 43
The latest NTSB initial findings are at:

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-relea...R20150910.aspx

It might be worth checking the NTSB website for further news as this is from the investigators themselves, and is not speculation.
mcloaked is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 20:25
  #335 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,574
that calm an authoritative voice on the radio is almost certainly not that of the captain.
Who said what and when on the radio when depends on who was doing the take-off, and there was almost certainly more than one voice.

If done according to script:

The Non-handler (so that could have been either the captain or the co-pilot) should have done the "stopping" call ...
The co-pilot should have made the "mayday" call.
The captain should have made the call to ATC that they were evacuating

That said the captain can operate outside the SOPs if he/she feels fit and I think they did ***** well to get them all done (probably a sim check "exceed" just for that ), I'm not fussed who did what on the R/T to be honest.

Last edited by wiggy; 10th Sep 2015 at 20:40.
wiggy is online now  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 20:26
  #336 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: London Under EGLL(LHR) 27R ILS
Age: 27
Posts: 492
IIO is a 275tonne MTOW model, one of only four. Whilst it was a light load, LAS is high and hot - presumably the 38*C/39*C temperature at time of incident meant a take-off quite close if not at full thrust.
HeathrowAirport is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 20:39
  #337 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 5,247
rom the NTSB investigative update as posted here by fokkerjet
Quote:
...
• Initial examination of the left engine revealed multiple breaches of the engine case in the area around the high pressure compressor.

• Examination of the material recovered from runway found several pieces of the high pressure compressor spool (approximately 7-8 inches in length).
...
Here is a link to a detailed diagram of a GE90. The variant is the 115, so some details and proportions will differ from the accident flight. But nonprofessionals unfamiliar with basic turbofan structure designations may find it helpful.

http://lyle.smu.edu/propulsion/Pages.../turbofan2.jpe

As lomapaseo suggested above, I think the biggest outstanding question is how this failure resulted in the release of so much fuel.
I'm mildly curious how the pieces ended up on the runway. They may not have even made it through the nacelle but only got as far as the bypass and gone out the fan discharge.

Nevertheless any unmitigated source of fuel inside the nacel or pylon may have to be looked for by the fire-safety group.

Without the fire this may not have been a biggie
lomapaseo is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 20:52
  #338 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 43
There is an interesting AD at https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...02022582,d.d2s

This refers to additional inspections on the type of engine that was installed on the aircraft in this discussion. Is it possible that even with the additional inspections that the failure mode described in this report could still have eventually occurred (i.e. uncontained engine failure at the high pressure compressor area).
mcloaked is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 20:59
  #339 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 75
"
• Examination of the material recovered from runway found several pieces of the high pressure compressor spool (approximately 7-8 inches in length)."


Some of the CF-6 family of engines have/had cracking problems in this area.
oleostrut is offline  
Old 10th Sep 2015, 21:00
  #340 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 229
Crucial points and lessons learnt

I think this was an extremely serious incident that has proven that the following variables must all be present if we want to save lives:
- Well trained and experienced pilots
- Well trained and experienced cabin crew ( they are the evacuation execution experts)
- Well trained and experienced ATC personnel
- Well trained and experienced airport firemen
- A 3rd pilot helped to assess the real situation beyond cockpit based information. Each second is precious, his presence also made a significant difference in terms of speed to instigate evacuation.

Well trained and experienced professionals are not to be forgotten: this incident could have turned into a major disaster if the professionals above did not perform as expected. Professionals deserve good working conditions and decent pay, let's never forget this.
I was really impressed by the BA pilots' handling of this crisis, however I cannot ignore the excellent job done by the BA cabin crew and by the local ATC and fire services.
Just one of the above parties failing would have meant the loss of many lives. In a way this accident is a celebration of the high level professionalism needed in aviation from pilots & ATC to cabin crew & airport fire services.

Last edited by ILS27LEFT; 10th Sep 2015 at 21:28. Reason: corrections
ILS27LEFT is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.