Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Off the map
Posts: 1,041
Originally Posted by ChissayLuke
I'm glad to have provoked debate.
I stand by my oroginal comments.
And would respectfully point out that safety of the flying public has nothing to do with expecting 5 star service, or the price paid.
I stand by my oroginal comments.
And would respectfully point out that safety of the flying public has nothing to do with expecting 5 star service, or the price paid.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,297
Passengers don't understanding airline safety at all unless they are in an allied field.
Some pilots fly terrible pairings, layover in lousy, noisy hotels and accumulate fatigue. Then, they head back to the airport marginally rested at best, and fly another lousy segment of the pairing.
Some pilots fly terrible pairings, layover in lousy, noisy hotels and accumulate fatigue. Then, they head back to the airport marginally rested at best, and fly another lousy segment of the pairing.
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 19
I perceive the bigger danger here is not that we miss existing psychological conditions that affect pilots. Instead, my opinion (FWIW) is that increasing the pressure on pilots, and the intrusion of monitoring into private lives will drive some pilots into conditions that were NOT existing.
I agree absolutely that there needs to be a wholesale improvement in pilot support systems, and that pilots should be able to seek appropriate support and/or treatment for mental health issues. Just the same way as it is currently possible for physical health issues.
I just can't see that moving further down the road of intrusive monitoring linked to career-guilotines is going to achieve the intended result of reducing what is already a VERY rare situation.
I agree absolutely that there needs to be a wholesale improvement in pilot support systems, and that pilots should be able to seek appropriate support and/or treatment for mental health issues. Just the same way as it is currently possible for physical health issues.
I just can't see that moving further down the road of intrusive monitoring linked to career-guilotines is going to achieve the intended result of reducing what is already a VERY rare situation.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Toowoomba Australia
Age: 73
Posts: 22
Just more of the same
Everywhere bean counters are cutting costs and jeopardising quality to make an extra buck with exponential bonuses paid to execs with no accountability for consequences. When is $x million profit not enough to start taking risks.
Last edited by Nicolaus Silver; 20th Jul 2015 at 23:47. Reason: Grammar
Join Date: May 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 69
intrusive monitoring
We are seeing the same in my own field of anesthesiology and critical care. I am all for continuous quality improvement, etc. but it makes me very upset when a mid-level manager with much less education or experience that I have dissects my performance down to the microsecond including whether or not I use blue or black ink on my notes.
When performance reviews get very punitive then it fosters an uneasy atmosphere especially for a professional.
When performance reviews get very punitive then it fosters an uneasy atmosphere especially for a professional.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Europe
Posts: 165
The arrogance of psychological evaluations
As pilots we accept: black boxes, CVR, a door to keep the terrorists out, two checks every year, a line check and an annual medical.
On top of this we get bombarded with the principles of CRM where it is accepted that every decision that is made may be challenged by the other crew member.
The result of all this is that pilots "rightfully" develop an attitude to demand the same from those that judge their personality traits.
If those that are about to peal us like an onion are not familiar with our profession we will end up with the good ones being thrown out.
The first one who dares to challenge the decision made by the psch will be considered as a rebel and unfit to do the job. I do not know a single good captain that does not draw a line in the sand when needed.
The decision taken by EASA has put us under the dictatorship of the psychologist and possibly worse that of the psychiatrist. The door is wide open for abuses and there is nothing we can do about it.
And the ONLY reason why this happened is that the doctors that were aware of the condition of the German Wings pilot DID NOT inform the airline.
Just to mention a common problem. Any pilot that gets involved in a divorce will have to explain his marriage complications to a shrink just in order to keep his job!!! Madness!!!
On top of this we get bombarded with the principles of CRM where it is accepted that every decision that is made may be challenged by the other crew member.
The result of all this is that pilots "rightfully" develop an attitude to demand the same from those that judge their personality traits.
If those that are about to peal us like an onion are not familiar with our profession we will end up with the good ones being thrown out.
The first one who dares to challenge the decision made by the psch will be considered as a rebel and unfit to do the job. I do not know a single good captain that does not draw a line in the sand when needed.
The decision taken by EASA has put us under the dictatorship of the psychologist and possibly worse that of the psychiatrist. The door is wide open for abuses and there is nothing we can do about it.
And the ONLY reason why this happened is that the doctors that were aware of the condition of the German Wings pilot DID NOT inform the airline.
Just to mention a common problem. Any pilot that gets involved in a divorce will have to explain his marriage complications to a shrink just in order to keep his job!!! Madness!!!
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,297
Pitch Up Authority:
That is simply awful! Where are your unions?
Just to mention a common problem. Any pilot that gets involved in a divorce will have to explain his marriage complications to a shrink just in order to keep his job!!! Madness!!!
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 95
jetopa
Since this seems an isolated case because pilots have been flying for time immemorial and did not commit mass murders or even single killing. Does the case of narcissistic disturbance cause some people to just want to Kill?
I mean one wonders if this individual did this on purpose.
I mean one wonders if this individual did this on purpose.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Aberdeenshire
Posts: 10
I question the statement Since this seems an isolated case….
I think there have been as many as 4 or 5 in recent years where the investigation has come down on the side of intentional action by the pilot having been the cause of the fatal crash. Maybe around 1000 souls lost.
I do not presume to offer any comment on how to solve the issue. Just wanted to correct that statement.
I think there have been as many as 4 or 5 in recent years where the investigation has come down on the side of intentional action by the pilot having been the cause of the fatal crash. Maybe around 1000 souls lost.
I do not presume to offer any comment on how to solve the issue. Just wanted to correct that statement.
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 105
For Families of Germanwings Victims, Anger Burns Through Grief
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/11/wo...gh-grief.html?
Nevertheless, the families of the Haltern victims and those of more than 50 other victims are meeting on Saturday to discuss filing a lawsuit in the United States, where Mr. Lubitz was training when he was granted a leave to recover from depression. Elmar Giemulla, a German lawyer representing many families here, said he believed that in addition to additional compensation allowed under United States tort laws, a suit could help uncover more information about the extent of Lufthansa’s knowledge of Mr. Lubitz’s condition and how he could have been considered flight-worthy.
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,257
Not a lot of detail in that piece on how a US suit would be heard by a US judge, unless there were American victims?
According to the Montreal Convention, a plaintiff may choose to bring suit in any one of five different jurisdictions:
- The domicile of the carrier
- The carrier's principal place of business
- Where the carriage contract was made (*)
- At the destination, and
- Where the passenger has his/her "principal and permanent" residence (*)
That last jurisdiction, the so called "fifth jurisdiction", only applies when there is damage resulting from death or injury of passenger (which is obviously the case here).
Note that the citizenship of the passenger does not come into play; Only the "principal and permanent" place of residence matters.
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Madrid, Spain.
Posts: 2
A simpler solution.
The autopilot system having the ultimate control over the door lock - whenever pre-set deviation limits for the flight controls are exceeded, the door is unlocked. The door lock should also be designed as fail-safe - requires power to retain locked state.
These deviation limits should be set according to the flight plan/route (automated calculation of % deviation, or similar), and if they are to be over-ridden, require two valid pass-codes from the assigned crew.
These deviation limits should be set according to the flight plan/route (automated calculation of % deviation, or similar), and if they are to be over-ridden, require two valid pass-codes from the assigned crew.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: the City by the Bay
Posts: 531
Let's look at how many times a locked door has prevented entry by terrorists and others bent on ill intent since we started having these break-proof doors, versus how many times a pilot has killed everyone by locking these same doors.
Maybe it is better to do away with these doors.
Maybe the cabin crew need all be trained in martial arts and be expert at those skills, rather then just serving drinks/food as well.
Maybe it is better to do away with these doors.
Maybe the cabin crew need all be trained in martial arts and be expert at those skills, rather then just serving drinks/food as well.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: The blasted heath
Posts: 238
I do not understand how simply having two people there would have helped in this case.
How would a non pilot have understood what the intentions could be by the initial variations of height?
What could they have done once the realisation had settled in?
A second person in the case of incapacitation so they could call for help yes; but not in this case.
How would a non pilot have understood what the intentions could be by the initial variations of height?
What could they have done once the realisation had settled in?
A second person in the case of incapacitation so they could call for help yes; but not in this case.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,532
Yes, this has been misunderstood.
The purpose of the 'baby sitter' in the cockpit while one pilot goes to the loo is purely to open the door and let that pilot back in to the cockpit.
The baby sitter is not expected to assimilate what the remaining pilot is doing to the flight path, nor are they expected to physically restrain or control that pilot by themselves.
They just open the door.
The purpose of the 'baby sitter' in the cockpit while one pilot goes to the loo is purely to open the door and let that pilot back in to the cockpit.
The baby sitter is not expected to assimilate what the remaining pilot is doing to the flight path, nor are they expected to physically restrain or control that pilot by themselves.
They just open the door.
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: France
Posts: 29
How would a non pilot have understood what the intentions could be by the initial variations of height?
