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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:16
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@silverstrata

You are a doctor and a psychiatrist are you? And you have made a firm diagnosis without ever seeing the patient! Very clever of you. You must have one of Dr McCoy's tricorders, that tells you exactly what is wrong. So tell me, Mr Expert...

If a milliner went crazy and killed his workmates, would that be: "his fault and his alone?"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_hatter_disease

If a returning soldier went crazy and killed his workmates, would that be: "his fault and his alone?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWHbF5jGJY0#t=22


So the working conditions of these people was 'just an excuse' was it? It was all their fault. How convenient. Sweep it all under the carpet. It was nothing to do with management (allowing unregulated mercury vapours), and nothing to do with the regulators (never inspecting the factory). Management and the authorities can wash their hands of the whole affair, and award themselves another share-bonus and a bigger pension on the basis of a job well done.

As you all know, that is simply a typical management cover-up and whitewash. In reality, if you don't research the problem then how do you know that there is not a systemic problem with the industry? And if you don't investigate, then how do you know if the guy you fly with tomorrow is not a fellow sufferer?

And I am not making excuses for this guy; it was an act of pure evil from an evil mind. But personally, I would like to know how and why this guy became evil, so we can stop it happening again.

I am a Doctor and neuroscientist of 23 years. Well said.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:17
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The door played a role in this event.

Edit: To those claiming that it didn't or was irrelevant I am afraid that I must disagree. We don't know what would have happened if the captain had been able to access the flight deck again but it is highly probable that the outcome could have been different in one way or another.

So yes, the door is a factor to consider here.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:19
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Originally Posted by AVR4000
The door played a role in this event.
As did the airplane, the runway, the sky, the lav service guy, the fueler, the........
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:21
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Seems to me that all visits to the GP should be reported to the medical branch of the licensing authority. That way the disconnect between GP services and operational requirements can be eliminated.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:28
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Originally Posted by msbbarratt
Yes it does. There's plenty of people on the ground who don't want to get hit by a rogue air freighter...
The OP asked how the EASA recommendation requiring two people to be present on the flight deck at all times will work on cargo aircraft.

If you've read the recommendation, you will know that it doesn't apply.

Originally Posted by NigelOnDraft
And us passenger types positioning aircraft
Nor to those.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:29
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The camera would not have stopped the loss of life - nor would a DFDR or CVR. What a camera does is make it IMMEDIATELY apparent that the FO was actually alive and well and sitting in his seat and stop all this continuous hamster wheel in the media and here about different ways he could have passed out and still locked the captain out. In many previous events SME's have sat for hours trying to work out what noises were.
Camera is easily defeated with a piece of tape over the lens. Though even that would have indicated intent.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:29
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NsSmith.

The problem with working in teams that always fly together in my mind you would get to know the other person and things would start to slide. Not much at first but SOPS wouldn't be followed rigorously, sterile cockpit not enforced... Among other things.

I'm not saying this would happen all the time, but it would happen.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:30
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Seems to me that all visits to the GP should be reported to the medical branch of the licensing authority. That way the disconnect between GP services and operational requirements can be eliminated.
In Canada at least, there are reportable conditions that a GP must report to Transport Canada. I am also obliged to self-declare GP visits on my medical when I visit my AME.

The problem is that not many GPs know this (not even my wife, who is also a GP, until I told her). A couple of years ago I was diagnosed with Type II diabetes, and I had to walk my GP (not my wife!) through the reporting procedure (it has to be the doctor, not the pilot, who reports, if it's picked up between medicals). He was completely unaware.

Fortunately we did it all by the book and since I'm not insulin dependent and otherwise very fit (4500 km of cycling a year) I still have my medical though I was grounded for 3 months while sorting out the medication and undergoing a battery of extra tests to satisfy Transport Canada. And this is for a PPL (class 3 medical), not an ATPL (class 1) like most of you guys.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:33
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Unlike the fueler, the door had a direct role in the event since it prevented the captain from getting access to the flight deck in a pretty dire situation where his presence could resulted in a different outcome (for the better or worse).

I have the opinion that the presence of the captain could have acted as a "limiter" to the actions that took place so yes, that door had its impact on the event.

It is not a cause, obviously but it is totally clear to me that the outcome would have changed in one way or another *if* the captain had been able to open the door. It would be either for the worse (the F/O disconnecting the A/P and initiating a steeper descent) or better (the ability to take the control back and level off, thus preventing the crash).
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:33
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I have to applaud LH and Germanwings for their very sensitive handling of the relatives. I read only positive reports about their approach to all of this. Compare this to Malaysia's handling or AF they are doing a really good job. Same is true for the locals in France, who are standing up to the difficult task brought upon them.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:41
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Possibly the actual motive was revenge and anger towards his employer. Need to sieve through all interactions between employer/line managers/work colleagues. Many airlines have become truly dreadful employers with employees in debt (flying training) and fear of losing job (health, including mental health). The prosecutor should gather all such evidence before it goes missing or is altered.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:41
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Thanks DR - you kicked me into finding the EASA recommendation.

In fact reading it, it is a bit wider than "2 crew of Flt Deck at all times":
The Agency recommends operators to re-assess the safety and security risks associated with flight crew members leaving the flight crew compartment due to operational or physiological needs during non-critical phases of flight.
Based on this assessment, operators are recommended to implement procedures requiring at least two persons authorised in accordance with CAT.GEN.MPA.135 to be in the flight crew compartment at all times, or other equivalent mitigating measures to address risks identified by the operatorís revised assessment.
Any additional risks stemming from the introduction of such procedures or measures should be assessed and mitigated.
The last sentence is a bit of a nightmare for airlines and regulators to assess... as some have pointed out, there are clear added risks to be evaluated by implementing the policy.

Which is "safer" comes down to someone paid more than me to assess thankfully
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:46
  #2153 (permalink)  
 
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About the door ...

Just consider what would have happened to that JetBlue flight if their co-pilot hadn't been able to lock the captain out of the cockpit.

The door system is what it is. In some cases it (may have) prevented loss of life, in others it (may have) facilitated it.

Two sides of the same coin.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:46
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Would you willingly board an aircraft if you knew the pilot was suffering from depression?
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:47
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No. SSRIs do not cause suicidal ideation except in one notorious drug which is no longer available. Seroxat was quite dangerous and many had severe effects from it. Not possible that this pilot was on Seroxat.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:52
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Flying Palm Tree,

Relating to the EASA recommendation as quoted by NoD that:

Any additional risks stemming from the introduction of such procedures or measures should be assessed and mitigated.
Would you willingly board an aircraft if you knew the cabin crew member who is now mandated to sit next to the pilot when he is on is own (between him and the fire axe) was suffering from depression?

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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:57
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There seems to be an assumption that the potential distraction or stress caused by significant life events like divorce or loss of a loved one is in the same boat as clinical mental illness.

In my view they are fundamentally different human conditions that can lead to fundamentally different events. In the first case, distraction and distress can lead to mistakes and, of course, a mistake could lead to a Terrible event.

In the case of clinical mental illness the events can be deliberately instigated by the afflicted person which could be the case in this event (I don't want to condemn the man until all the evidence possible has come to light).

On the balance of probabilities, just about every one of us will suffer at some time from the first case. This case HAS to be managed routinely by Operators by normal human resources principles. Grounding, time off to come to terms, assessment to ensure the required datums have returned and a short period of supervised flight operation. This surely is not beyond the wit of man to realise these events have nothing whatsoever to do with a clinical mental condition that could lead to unreasonable and unfavourable behaviours and ultimately tragic and horrific loss of life.

I cannot help but conclude that once a licence holder is diagnosed with a clinical mental condition his/her ability to ever exercise the privileges of that licence should be permanently removed.

The alternative is quite simply incomprehensible to the fare paying public. Imagine "welcome on board Flight 123 to X, the Captain has just returned from sick leave due to a bout of depression but seems OK now so strap in....."

It's a very harsh view I know but we work in a unique and challenging environment where it seems at present, we pay huge regard to the physical health of the flying machine, provide multiple safeguards for the Computers that make our life safer and easier, yet pay scant regard for the mental stability of the crew.

I am sure there are many who would disagree with me but I have never ever been convinced that anybody truly recovers to 100% once diagnosed with a clinical mental disorder.

I think we need to clearly separate and manage normal life stressors that could lead to errors from clinical mental disorders that could lead to deliberate acts of murder or self destruction.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:59
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Media Lynching?

How long did it take the BEA to fully investigate AF447? Granted the BBs were harder to find under the Atlantic. The BBC even aired a special which turned out to be mostly incorrect once the true nature of the FO and SOs actions were revealed.

Why is a Prosecutor determining an investigation that has barely started? Why did he announce "intent" just when grieving families were arriving on the scene to mourn?

It appears the authorities barely had enough time to seperate the FOs parents from the rest of the mourners...... The air their family home on TV.......

Do we not recall the Uberlingen collision and the subsequent killing of Peter Nielsen ATC operative two years later?

Constant rate breathing is not proof of prozac, or consciousness.

Improper / mistaken door unlocking has occurred before with severe aircraft Upset:

Accident: ANA B737 near Hamamatsu on Sep 6th 2011, violent left roll while opening cockpit door injures 2 cabin crew


We are talking about a 630h MPL with limited gliding background, time as a steward and only employed as an airline pilot since Sept 2013. That's a long break from flight training in 2008.

Whilst Germanwings pays better than most LoCos, the starting salary according to ppjn in 2013 was around 4200 euros and exclusive of repaying 70,000 Euro debts. Better than Flexicrew or Ryan Air FOs but still a burden. Then a wait of 12 years for command and severe changes ahead to Lufhansa group Ts&Cs.

For me the media reports are too simplistic. Absolutely no excuses for any deliberate action by the FO. But where is the FDR and ACAS to confirm speculative FlightRadar reports (ADSB is not encrypted and can be manipulated).
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 20:01
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Batman 737 spot on!

Nothing but nothing excuses this act of mass murder in our profession.

But bullying and intimidation cannot pass for pilot welfare in this day and age.

I wonder how many of us are rolling our eyes at the 'two in policy' being revived when it was taken away years ago-against our sense of airmanship-by those concerned with maximising in flight sales.

I could prattle on about blasting around the skies with guys/gals 100K in debt as the least of their problems.

As an industry you just have to ask..how did the regulators let it get to this?
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 20:03
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Colleague recommended a card access system for pilots only. Would ideally over ride all internal locks and could be snapped in two in the case of hijacking where either flight crew has left the FD.

People do go 'postal' for reasons we may never truly understand. This guy chose an Airbus as his weapon instead of an automatic.
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