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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 27th Mar 2015, 18:20
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All very valid points! lurch into the mind of an narcissist or sociopath and you will find they are wimps, pretenders and cardsharpers (and sometimes pilots). Social control is what keeps them from doing what they wish to do in their mind. For me it looks all very considered with the information available.
Destroyed sick leave note and then a cool and normal flight until the door closes - from the outside.

What is he doing to his family? his friends? his colleagues ?

Looking at the facts already available, the deeply pathological narcissistic actions of this chap are so utterly embarrassing. He did not only kill 149 people, he destroyed the live of many others, but these people are not dead, they have to get on in live. What damage and a name in history because he was obviously not getting in his live were he wanted to get to.

I really don't think the real issue is "depression", it seems more like a well hidden serious personality disorder.
Narcissists aren't known for suicidal acts. He may have been some form of sociopath but I doubt it was NPD.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 18:23
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Rantaplane,

I don't think he much cared at the moment he made his choice.

One would hope, had he been confronted, that he would have seen the utter destruction he was about to heap on not only the people on the plane, but those left behind as well. Then again he was confronted, by the banging on the door, the screams from the back, yet he continued.

It remains cometely beyond my scope of understanding, how he could perpetrate such an act. The murder of innocent people, kids, babies.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 18:25
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@Banjodrone

Exactly....narcicists love themselves too much to fly into a mountain...
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 18:31
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EASA Have just recommended that ALL airlines are to now operate a minimum of TWO ON THE FLIGHT DECK AT ALL TIMES DURING FLIGHT.. Finally!!

Now I really hope the industry looks carefully and sensibly at ways to manage all the potential dimensions that might lead to such a tragedy!

Everybody has difficulties in life leading to a wide range of mental states from specific diagnosed conditions to simple grief for the loss of a loved one, chronic fatigue (shhhh), stress, the list is endless... This is often incompatible with the ability to pilot an aircraft to the required safe standard.. (Situational Awareness, Workload, Aptitude, Cognitive skills, responsibility etc etc).. Even if just for a short period of time or indefinitely..

In our industry there is a culture of silence and fear on these issues. If you are fatigued or depressed does one call in sick with that explanation? Or does one call in sick with a blocked sinus or a stomach bug? This really needs to be looked at sensibly and we have to come up with something that everybody can trust.

If a pilot (and I'm certainly not referring to this particular pilot as this now needs to be thoroughly investigated with official findings made) is suffering from one of a multitude of situations which is impairing them mentally right from fatigue to a specific mental condition then we all need to have the confidence of a system in place where we don't get the perception that we'll be out the door and back on the dole with no hope of return etc..

Of course in certain situations (possibly in the case of this pilot) one might be grounded for a lengthy period of time or indefinitely but in many cases with the right support for issues fairly common to all like divorce, deaths, other physical illnesses that effect us mentally too, stress, fatigue (that taboo word) the condition can be resolved.. We need to have a support system in place.. Not "you're allowed 2 days off for the death of an immediate relative then back to work son"...

Lets just hope that some positives can come out of this for the common welfare of all colleagues, passengers and operators.. We don't want this to happen again!!!

Last edited by Batman737; 27th Mar 2015 at 18:49.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 18:31
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His fault and his alone
Had he not locked the door and augered it in it would not have happened
Everything else is an excuse
The reason is moot but obvious: he felt slighted and wanted revenge

Not mommies or daddies
Not his doctor
Not the industry
Not the security measures
Not hiring practice
Not pay/benefits/work environment
Not the company
Not the girl/boy friend
Not the captain
Not those who teased him

His, and his alone
I will not take one iota of responsibity for the death and suffering those innocent souls endured
He did it alone with malice, premeditation and precise controlled action
All the while listening to people begging for their lives and those of their children.
You are a doctor and a psychiatrist are you? And you have made a firm diagnosis without ever seeing the patient! Very clever of you. You must have one of Dr McCoy's tricorders, that tells you exactly what is wrong. So tell me, Mr Expert...

If a milliner went crazy and killed his workmates, would that be: "his fault and his alone?"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_hatter_disease

If a returning soldier went crazy and killed his workmates, would that be: "his fault and his alone?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWHbF5jGJY0#t=22


So the working conditions of these people was 'just an excuse' was it? It was all their fault. How convenient. Sweep it all under the carpet. It was nothing to do with management (allowing unregulated mercury vapours), and nothing to do with the regulators (never inspecting the factory). Management and the authorities can wash their hands of the whole affair, and award themselves another share-bonus and a bigger pension on the basis of a job well done.

As you all know, that is simply a typical management cover-up and whitewash. In reality, if you don't research the problem then how do you know that there is not a systemic problem with the industry? And if you don't investigate, then how do you know if the guy you fly with tomorrow is not a fellow sufferer?

And I am not making excuses for this guy; it was an act of pure evil from an evil mind. But personally, I would like to know how and why this guy became evil, so we can stop it happening again.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 18:32
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Two things I would like to see

1, I don’t know if anyone does this, but I would like to see the idea of “flying teams” become more common. The idea being that a captain and FO, and a senior FA (or two) would normally work as a team. I don’t believe that there are any technological or medical measures that would be anything like as effective as this to keep everyone safe. The team would monitor each other and know better than anyone if one of them was unwell. Obviously such teams would come together voluntarily and so enjoy a good level of compatibility. I am not saying that this would be an absolute rule, but just be the norm.

2, I would like to see a system where pilots have access to a totally independent medical facility that would have the power to force the airline to allow the pilot to go on leave without specifying any particular reason. If I owned an airline I would insist that no one outside the medical facility would know anything about the health problems of any of the employees. This would allow a pilot to ask for medical assistance in the certain knowledge that the type of problem they have (whatever it is) could not affect their employment prospects. I have read several posts in this thread from pilots who acted very responsibility (and, I presume, legally) and told their employer the truth about their problems only to have this honesty repaid with dismissal. Bean counters cannot be expected to care about anything but beans, so let us please have a system where this does not result in the most responsible and trustworthy people being eliminated.

Airliners that use these kinds of ideas will certainly get my custom every time.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 18:32
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whatever he has been going through or suffering from is absolutley nothing from what he put everyone else through on that flight & will put their familys through for years to come .
He is in my opinion a coward , a murderer and deserves no sympathy from anybody ! Be a man and face your problems , but dont bring everyone down with you to deny them happiness .
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 18:33
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I think that we should not forget that he was 27 years old... I found difficult to believe that the industry, the company, the system was to blame for his problems...
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 18:37
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Originally Posted by Triskel
IFPS man - I agree with your suggestion, quite possible.
Also, I remember attending a talk a couple of years ago by a guy representing a major manufacturer (unfortunately can't remember) who described a safety system using a GPS-referenced global terrain map, detailed right down to building level, which would prevent an a/c being flown into any obstacle (in questions he said it could even have prevented the 9/11 scenario). Wish I could remember the company and name of the system - does anyone else know about this?
The Project was called 'Soft Walls'. There are/were some problems with it; but the intent was that the aircraft could only descend below the MSA if it was approaching an airport.

See http://ptolemy.eecs.berkeley.edu/pub...softwalls2.pdf
Or search the internet for Softwalls Aircraft
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 18:51
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Anti-depressants: side-effects of SSRIs
I posted the following earlier in this thread following the announcement of "significant finds" at the pilot's home:

There would seem to be a limited number of items that would qualify as a significant find at the FO's home(s). It's too soon for an analysis of the computer content and no suicide note was found.
My guess is that they've found anti-depressants. One of the main questions that doctors ask patients who are commencing a course of SSRIs (Prozac etc) is whether they are experiencing any suicidal feelings.
One of the reported side-effects of SSRIs is suicidal impulses (obviously only in a limited - but statistically significant - number of cases).
That would fit the evidence so far released.

Whether or not I'm right about what they've found, I think it's worth emphasising a couple of things about this. There have been a lot of cases where the suicidal impulses seem to have been have been triggered by the use of this class of drugs (selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors) even in patients where there hasn't necessarily been any occurrence of suicidal ideation previously - or even a diagnosis of severe depression.

The sheer simplicity of prescribing a one-size-fits-all medication (20mg p.d. usually) for a wide range of symptoms diagnosed as "depression" has resulted in an explosion of prescriptions for these drugs - not to mention profits for the pharmaceutical industry. What's not widely known is that the clinical trials submitted for FDA approval of SSRIs (I believe 4 statistically positive sets of results are required) were cherry-picked from the totality of these trials. Taken overall the entire range of clinical trials resulted in an effectiveness barely greater than that of the placebos: a USA doctor has published a book in which he reveals an analysis of ALL the clinical trials concerned, not just those which were submitted to the FDA. Furthermore the side-effects of SSRIs mean that anyone in the trial taking the drug, rather than the placebo, is bound to know it isn't a placebo. Which distorts the results significantly.

Given the hugely widespread prescription of Prozac, Seroxat etc, I'd be very surprised if there aren't numerous pilots out there using, and concealing the use of, SSRIs.
Some of theses SSRI's, such as Prozac, do not only cause certain people to become suicidal, but also homicidal, and also suicidal and homicidal at the same time. Psychiatrists often prescribe them to Paranoid Schizophrenics, before trying them on drugs such as Geodon. This is a colossal mistake, but virtually every Psychiatrist does this. In all these school, theatre, and other mass killings in the USA, the perpetrators always are under active psychiatric care. No one ever points out, that maybe the active psychiatric care was part of the cause of the the perpetrator going postal, possibly because of misprescribed Prozac and the like. Otherwise, the patients may have just harmlessly wandered down the street talking to himself or someone who isn't there.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 18:55
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So 2 persons at all times in the cockpit?

I wonder how that will work on Cargo Aircraft...or will the Freightdogs now have to use a bedpan?!
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 18:59
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I don't know what sort of mental illness he may or may not have had, out of interest I would like to know if there were any "temper tantrums" in his school days - resistance to authority behaviour.

I 100% believe he consciously and deliberately flew the plane into a mountain either not caring if it killed 149 people or he may even have wanted to put an even bigger finger up to whom ever he was doing it to, using the loss of 149 innocents.

if there is some sort of test that can even give a 50% indication of that trait it must be used to ground such ppl from any aircrew job and possibly maintenance job.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:00
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Everyone of us has to likely drive in our cars daily. There are many people driving on the very same roads that are...
-not paying attention
-extremely depressed or despondent
-intoxicated or high
-severely stressed out
-coping with untold distractions in their car

If we really were aware of the amount of cars/trucks on the road being driven by these sorts of drivers we would likely never drive again. About 100 people are killed each day in the USA in auto accidents.

Everything we do has risks. Flying is not just safe, but amazingly safe. We should all understand that the efforts needed to make something that is already extremely safe safer yet may have substantial unintended consequences and disproportionate costs. Personally I see little reason to change existing safeguards except at the margins and only after thorough analysis and reflection after the initial emotional reactions of the event have passed. I say this as a member of the flying public and not an insider. I am not making lite of this tragedy, I fully understand the loss of life and the devastation to the families involved.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:01
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50
anengineer:
1. Camera would not have stopped this tragic loss of life.
2. I don't see the point of your question.
Based on what a great many airline pilots report, some of whom are friends of mine for decades, the cultural relationship between management and workforce in airlines is already toxic, or close to it.

What you suggest would make that set of working condition worses, not better.

Mods, if this line of discussion belongs in another thread, please move us and it.
Interesting that there are two points in your response to be made:

1. The camera would not have stopped the loss of life - nor would a DFDR or CVR. What a camera does is make it IMMEDIATELY apparent that the FO was actually alive and well and sitting in his seat and stop all this continuous hamster wheel in the media and here about different ways he could have passed out and still locked the captain out. In many previous events SME's have sat for hours trying to work out what noises were.

2. The cultural relationship between management and crews - could well have been a contributory factor in the PF's behavior. It is time that the airlines fixed themselves - if a beancounter starts taking action by going over FOQA data then he should be sacked and banned from aviation, similarly a manager trying to crawl through CVR for comments to get upset about should be grounds for immediate dismissal and no return to aviation. If you look at The Human Factors Analysis and Classification System HFACS ( https://www.nifc.gov/fireInfo/fireIn..._classAnly.pdf ) see figure 3. The airlines themselves (and as members of the airlines that includes pilots and cabin crew too) are a causal factor for this type of incident. This is a MAJOR safety issue that is disregarded continually. I can remember way back in the military having it drummed in to everyone that Flight Safety was everyone's business - often with examples of a pay-clerk screwing someone up and that leading to the incorrect mental state while flying -- sound familiar?

Let's hope this crash has an effect on management and they start realizing that the kind of 'industrial relations' games they are playing have a direct impact on safety of operations, they in turn will have a direct impact on their bottom line in a way that will dwarf the savings of a few thousand per year on a FO's salary.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:04
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One response on this issue that hasn't been raised yet. The Mayday iniative which is specifically aimed at supporting aircrew in times of need, either after an accident , incident , domestic , or any other issue which affects our ability to safely function in our profession. The Mayday Stiftung was initiated by pilots from Lufthansa and has since grown internationally. It has the full support of many airlines and has a confidential, safe reporting system, where an individual can without prejudice declare himself unfit for flight duties and be counseled by his peers and if necessary be directed to professional help. Our profession has possibly a higher stress level than any other and the recognition of this fact can have serious implications to a pilots career.
In this case the system has failed.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:10
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The crew member could open the door!

We have this policy in place at work. Doesn't bother me. Nice to have a chat with the crew whilst my colleague is out the flight deck. Also good to have someone in the flight deck to help with an incapacitation, should it happen.

I agree that should you have one person who is determined to commit an atrocity then you will not stop them with a crew member in the flight deck, but it would have prevented this tragic accident on this occasion.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:11
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So 2 persons at all times in the cockpit?
I wonder how that will work on Cargo Aircraft...or will the Freightdogs now have to use a bedpan?!
And us passenger types positioning aircraft

Trust the airlines will have to add a 3rd crew member
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:12
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EASA knee jerk

I read this post from beginning to end, I'm mystified as to why so many posters, with the obvious exceptions are jumping onto the trial by media bandwagon. Surely there are enough intelligent people on this forum to know that making a decision Ie problem solving is done in full receipt of the facts. I'm a ground based lowly mechanic with B1 and types but I would never dream of solving any problem until I am sure of the SOLID facts. Let's reserve judgement, await the findings of the FDR when it's recovered and make an intelligent decision. I can offer no clues as to what happened, it's the most bizarre event I've seen in my 25 years exposure to aviation and I wholeheartedly reserve any judgement until I see facts and not torn up doctors notes or stupid Facebook pages. Patience and time will reveal a probable cause but a media witch hunt won't help our industry.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:12
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Originally Posted by despegue
So 2 persons at all times in the cockpit?

I wonder how that will work on Cargo Aircraft...or will the Freightdogs now have to use a bedpan?!
Doesn't apply.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:16
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VictorTango,

Why is it embarrassing to have a FA on the flight deck. That person isn't there to watch the pilots actions wrt. the aircraft but in case of sudden incapacitation and to guard access to the flight deck.

Since 9/11 it has been SOP in the US, really haven't heard anyone be upset about it. Clearly you are, so clearly it's not done at your place of employ.
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