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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

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Airbus A320 crashed in Southern France

Old 27th Mar 2015, 18:48
  #2101 (permalink)  
 
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JamesT73J: I know it's different days......
Boy, is it EVER!
Murexway is offline  
Old 27th Mar 2015, 18:48
  #2102 (permalink)  
 
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His fault and his alone
Had he not locked the door and augered it in it would not have happened
Everything else is an excuse
The reason is moot but obvious: he felt slighted and wanted revenge

Not mommies or daddies
Not his doctor
Not the industry
Not the security measures
Not hiring practice
Not pay/benefits/work environment
Not the company
Not the girl/boy friend
Not the captain
Not those who teased him

His, and his alone
I will not take one iota of responsibity for the death and suffering those innocent souls endured
He did it alone with malice, premeditation and precise controlled action
All the while listening to people begging for their lives and those of their children
That is absolutely correct.....BUT......fixing the issues it highlighted will involve a lot more than pointing the finger at him for what he did. The responsibility was his but there are a trail of reasons it happened that need to be addressed and that needs to be the focus, not least the arrangements for toilet breaks. On a related note, this doesn't do much for the idea of single pilot cockpits, something that Airbus, Embraer and others have been working on for a long time.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 18:48
  #2103 (permalink)  
 
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@Murexway: I assume from your post that FAs know how to operate the door switch. Apologies as I am not a pilot on these types of aircraft, yet.

@Heathrow Harry: I completely agree with you as pilots are also humans susceptible to health issues. But when we know that incidents like this happen and will happen again, the industry needs to think of a solution reduces the chances of it occurring again.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 18:50
  #2104 (permalink)  
 
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Now is the time for Pilots to go the extra mile with their interaction with the paying public, certainly in the short term. Try meet and greet or say goodbye where possible, be as informative as possible, give reassurance.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 18:51
  #2105 (permalink)  
 
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@V2-OMG "Even so, I suspect airline management will now buggar these lengthy chit-chats between the flight and cabin crew - at least those in full view of the passengers because it may be perceived as a flagrant disregard of safety and responsibility. (Those milk runs just got more tedious). It is unfortunate that the actions of one rogue will now sully the job experience for thousands of apt pilots."

True - but the consequences of the actions of this one pilot are so dire, and so totally abhorrent, and so sad with so many people's lives brought to utter misery, that it will likely be taken very seriously by all airlines whose management will feel a strong need to increase the perceived safety for all passengers thinking of buying a ticket - without re-assurance to the flying public if confidence in the very act of taking a flight is reduced it would have significant financial implications for the running of airlines. So a response to shore up confidence seems very likely. The flying public used to admire and look up to the competence and reliability of commercial pilots - that confidence may have been severely shaken by the extensive news about this incident. How many percent reduction in ticket sales will bring an airline down financially? How many percent reduction in ticket sales will bring in a need for airlines to reduce the earnings of pilots?

In running a business of any kind the management has to take seriously the low probability but extremely high impact events that might only happen very occasionally.

Also it does sound like a more enlightened attitude amongst airline managers towards pilots coming clean about their health issues would be very helpful and more likely that pilots might admit to issues if the consequences were not a significant chance of loss of career!

Last edited by mcloaked; 27th Mar 2015 at 19:04.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 18:52
  #2106 (permalink)  
 
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I'm afraid there is no excuse for "patient confidentiality". You're either Fit or Unfit to fly, doesn't matter what the inherent condition is. If a Dr suspected a Pilot of having a terminal illness, the pilot is immediately grounded. That Dr has a duty to report to the employer/authorities that the pilot is Unfit to fly, the issue remaining confidential. Because if the pilot doesn't declare himself unfit they continue flying...
That is true with the AME, although he can only report unfit to fly to the authority. And yes, i had the displeasure to endure that myself and came back to flying (not mental illness though, just a garden variety thing). Any GP cannot do that and in fact is barred from doing that by law. Laws can change, but i do not see it happen, instead i wouldn't be surprised if pilots have to endure a psych evaluation additionally to the normal medical. And of course part MED might change as well, i guess any kind of anxiety disorder or mental illness will lead to a permanent loss of medical in the future which is good for all those guys without a job.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 18:55
  #2107 (permalink)  
 
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@Flying Lawyer excellent post.

Re MH issues:
So it may have happened to a pilot, but you would have as many chances of being in a situation where some desk jockey suddenly goes berserk and decides to start shooting moving targets at your office? Now what?

It's only human nature, some of us may or may not be affected by brain glitches, and a very tiny percentage of those who have them, flip out, and even so, a tiny percentage of those end up in disaster. But nevertheless it can happen.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:03
  #2108 (permalink)  
 
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@ Ingenieur

Being German I can asssure you that the notes said nothing about an illness. They never do, they are papers to be handed to the employer and this data is private in Germany. The employer is being informed that the person is ill but not with WHICH ILLNESS
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:05
  #2109 (permalink)  
 
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@Susier

Moreover let me assure you that no doctor would write out a so called "Krankenschein" for depression for 1 day.....
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:06
  #2110 (permalink)  
 
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I don't think we can look for 'guarantees' here when it comes to security, but we can imagine ways to improve on it, and to my mind having an extra person in the cockpit is better than none if a rogue pilot wants to bring down the plane.

Many have brought up EgyptAir 990 as an instance to prove the following sentiment: "well, if a pilot wants to bring down the plane, nothing and no one can stop him, even if another pilot is strapped in next to him." However, this leaves out the important detail in this case that the captain was not next to the f/o when the latter made decisive inputs for a CFIT. In fact, the capt was in the lav at the time. He returned disoriented/confused by the sudden descent and never seemed to realize that the other pilot was deliberately trying to bring down the plane (asking the f/o to pull with him (FDR suggests he wasn't, but the capt was seemingly unaware...I'm also aware that the Egyptian aviation authority disagrees with NTSB on the cause). Had he known of the f/o's intent, or had someone else in the FD seen him act suspiciously to initiate descent, he and others might have overpowered him and saved lives (as they did in the case of JAL 350).

Onboard battles don't guarantee a perfect outcome, but it seems to me physical force has a better chance of saving lives than nothing at all when it comes to a rogue pilot.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:08
  #2111 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mcloaked View Post

In running a business of any kind the management has to take seriously the low probability but extremely high impact events that might only happen very occasionally.
The central fallacy to your argument is that a "solution" to those extremely rare but very bad events can be implemented without affecting any other part of the operation.

I would argue that this is almost never the case. The two crew rule that was implemented in a totally knee jerk panic by Airline execs and Regulators is a perfect example. What is to stop the flight attendant brought in from waiting for the door to close, clubbing the defenseless pilot strapped to his or her seat, activating the door over ride and crashing the airplane.

Considering that flight attendants are not required to have a valid aviation medical and get a fraction of the mental health oversight of pilots, I would argue this rule actually increases the risk of a "low probability but high consequence event" occurring.

Similarly the back end is there fundamentally for flight safety reasons, not to serve cookies. Eliminating any personal in flight interaction between FA's and flight crew will over time cut the bond between crew which in extremeis must work as a team. How can that help flight safety in the long run ?

Risk can be managed but never eliminated.

It has been suggested by mental health professionals that 10 % of the population has a diagnoseable mental health issue. Absolutely airlines will evaluate their mental health protocols but it is a practical impossibility to eliminate anyone who might pose a mental health risk.

bottom line is this:

The chance for a similar accident happening on any flight is so vanishingly small that there is no requirement to do anything but let the professionals study the issue in a dispassionate and scientific manner and then make recommendations that consider all of the possible consequences of their implementation.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:13
  #2112 (permalink)  
 
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Sick notes

To clarify this: The doctor does not necessarily know his profession unless he told him. He knows which health Insurance he has which is all that matters these days. Privately insured? Great! Get sick notes every week if you need them.

An to repeat what I said before: Hearing a door open and close is no proof for someone having left the room.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:14
  #2113 (permalink)  
 
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The mere presence of another human, with eyes and a brain and a moral conscience (as opposed to a passive video system) changes the psychological dynamics in the cabin, compared to being alone. There are some things it is simply much harder to do - psychologically - when someone else is present and observing you.

Think not? Why did this co-pilot wait until he was alone to take this action? Egypt Air shows that he could have - with some probability - brought the aircraft down even with the PIC trying to stop him in a full fist-fight.

But doing it alone - in "secret" and hidden from the eyes and judgements of others - made it easier.
All very valid points! lurch into the mind of an narcissist or sociopath and you will find they are wimps, pretenders and cardsharpers (and sometimes pilots). Social control is what keeps them from doing what they wish to do in their mind. For me it looks all very considered with the information available.
Destroyed sick leave note and then a cool and normal flight until the door closes - from the outside.

What is he doing to his family? his friends? his colleagues ?

Looking at the facts already available, the deeply pathological narcissistic actions of this chap are so utterly embarrassing. He did not only kill 149 people, he destroyed the live of many others, but these people are not dead, they have to get on in live. What damage and a name in history because he was obviously not getting in his live were he wanted to get to.

I really don't think the real issue is "depression", it seems more like a well hidden serious personality disorder.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:17
  #2114 (permalink)  
 
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@Eaglebaby,

You wrote: "Hearing a door open and close is no proof for someone having left the room."

My understanding is you can hear on the CVR the capt imploring the f/o to let him back in (along with knocking, pounding, etc.). Also, with area mics being what they are, I'm sure not only that they (and the CVR analysts) can determine the identity of the voice on the other side of the door, but also whether one or two human beings are breathing in the cockpit.

I really don't think the theory that the capt and f/o were together throughout / that the capt is responsible instead of the f/o holds much weight at this point.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:19
  #2115 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Coagie View Post
Lubitz was able to fly in this case on the condition, that he get periodic psychiatric evaluation. The problem with this is, apparently the results of this evaluation are self reported. In order to be able to fly, there should have been a mechanism to waive doctor/patient confidentiality, where the doctor could be required to inform the airline immediately, that Libitetz was unfit to fly.
I am of the opinion, 20/20 hindsight of course, that he shouldn't have been permitted to fly at all, but it's pretty ridiculous that an illness that can affect public safety, and can remain concealed, be only self reported. Require people to sign a waiver, if they are flying on such conditions.
What source?
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:20
  #2116 (permalink)  
 
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All very valid points! lurch into the mind of an narcissist or sociopath and you will find they are wimps, pretenders and cardsharpers (and sometimes pilots). Social control is what keeps them from doing what they wish to do in their mind. For me it looks all very considered with the information available.
Destroyed sick leave note and then a cool and normal flight until the door closes - from the outside.

What is he doing to his family? his friends? his colleagues ?

Looking at the facts already available, the deeply pathological narcissistic actions of this chap are so utterly embarrassing. He did not only kill 149 people, he destroyed the live of many others, but these people are not dead, they have to get on in live. What damage and a name in history because he was obviously not getting in his live were he wanted to get to.

I really don't think the real issue is "depression", it seems more like a well hidden serious personality disorder.
Narcissists aren't known for suicidal acts. He may have been some form of sociopath but I doubt it was NPD.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:23
  #2117 (permalink)  
 
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Rantaplane,

I don't think he much cared at the moment he made his choice.

One would hope, had he been confronted, that he would have seen the utter destruction he was about to heap on not only the people on the plane, but those left behind as well. Then again he was confronted, by the banging on the door, the screams from the back, yet he continued.

It remains cometely beyond my scope of understanding, how he could perpetrate such an act. The murder of innocent people, kids, babies.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:25
  #2118 (permalink)  
 
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@Banjodrone

Exactly....narcicists love themselves too much to fly into a mountain...
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:31
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EASA Have just recommended that ALL airlines are to now operate a minimum of TWO ON THE FLIGHT DECK AT ALL TIMES DURING FLIGHT.. Finally!!

Now I really hope the industry looks carefully and sensibly at ways to manage all the potential dimensions that might lead to such a tragedy!

Everybody has difficulties in life leading to a wide range of mental states from specific diagnosed conditions to simple grief for the loss of a loved one, chronic fatigue (shhhh), stress, the list is endless... This is often incompatible with the ability to pilot an aircraft to the required safe standard.. (Situational Awareness, Workload, Aptitude, Cognitive skills, responsibility etc etc).. Even if just for a short period of time or indefinitely..

In our industry there is a culture of silence and fear on these issues. If you are fatigued or depressed does one call in sick with that explanation? Or does one call in sick with a blocked sinus or a stomach bug? This really needs to be looked at sensibly and we have to come up with something that everybody can trust.

If a pilot (and I'm certainly not referring to this particular pilot as this now needs to be thoroughly investigated with official findings made) is suffering from one of a multitude of situations which is impairing them mentally right from fatigue to a specific mental condition then we all need to have the confidence of a system in place where we don't get the perception that we'll be out the door and back on the dole with no hope of return etc..

Of course in certain situations (possibly in the case of this pilot) one might be grounded for a lengthy period of time or indefinitely but in many cases with the right support for issues fairly common to all like divorce, deaths, other physical illnesses that effect us mentally too, stress, fatigue (that taboo word) the condition can be resolved.. We need to have a support system in place.. Not "you're allowed 2 days off for the death of an immediate relative then back to work son"...

Lets just hope that some positives can come out of this for the common welfare of all colleagues, passengers and operators.. We don't want this to happen again!!!

Last edited by Batman737; 27th Mar 2015 at 19:49.
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Old 27th Mar 2015, 19:31
  #2120 (permalink)  
 
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His fault and his alone
Had he not locked the door and augered it in it would not have happened
Everything else is an excuse
The reason is moot but obvious: he felt slighted and wanted revenge

Not mommies or daddies
Not his doctor
Not the industry
Not the security measures
Not hiring practice
Not pay/benefits/work environment
Not the company
Not the girl/boy friend
Not the captain
Not those who teased him

His, and his alone
I will not take one iota of responsibity for the death and suffering those innocent souls endured
He did it alone with malice, premeditation and precise controlled action
All the while listening to people begging for their lives and those of their children.
You are a doctor and a psychiatrist are you? And you have made a firm diagnosis without ever seeing the patient! Very clever of you. You must have one of Dr McCoy's tricorders, that tells you exactly what is wrong. So tell me, Mr Expert...

If a milliner went crazy and killed his workmates, would that be: "his fault and his alone?"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_hatter_disease

If a returning soldier went crazy and killed his workmates, would that be: "his fault and his alone?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWHbF5jGJY0#t=22


So the working conditions of these people was 'just an excuse' was it? It was all their fault. How convenient. Sweep it all under the carpet. It was nothing to do with management (allowing unregulated mercury vapours), and nothing to do with the regulators (never inspecting the factory). Management and the authorities can wash their hands of the whole affair, and award themselves another share-bonus and a bigger pension on the basis of a job well done.

As you all know, that is simply a typical management cover-up and whitewash. In reality, if you don't research the problem then how do you know that there is not a systemic problem with the industry? And if you don't investigate, then how do you know if the guy you fly with tomorrow is not a fellow sufferer?

And I am not making excuses for this guy; it was an act of pure evil from an evil mind. But personally, I would like to know how and why this guy became evil, so we can stop it happening again.
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