I am an Army of One (merged)
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Carruthers,
Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us and tell us what the crew actually do during an automatic approach.
Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us as to the content of initial and recurrent training for automatic landings.
Once you've done that, you'll be able to explain to us how autolanding systems remove the need for flight crew.
Thanks in advance.
CPB
Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us and tell us what the crew actually do during an automatic approach.
Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us as to the content of initial and recurrent training for automatic landings.
Once you've done that, you'll be able to explain to us how autolanding systems remove the need for flight crew.
Thanks in advance.
CPB
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411A
if you actually do fly for a living it's plain you have far too much time off. I suggest that the (obvious) truth is that you are one of those long in the tooth ex. dudes who remember how it used to be in the days when real men flew DC-3's over the rockies and so on. Why not take a leaf outa these guys books and spend a little more time flying and a bit less annoying people on pprune?
We know its hot in AZ at this time of year; lie down
if you actually do fly for a living it's plain you have far too much time off. I suggest that the (obvious) truth is that you are one of those long in the tooth ex. dudes who remember how it used to be in the days when real men flew DC-3's over the rockies and so on. Why not take a leaf outa these guys books and spend a little more time flying and a bit less annoying people on pprune?
We know its hot in AZ at this time of year; lie down
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Actually, brain fade..
Did fly DC-3's, but not over the rockies (ah...too cold) but down the Caribbean way. Puerto Rico to be exact, a very long time ago.
As I read thru the postings on PPRuNe, I find that many actually take themselves FAR to seriously, as in...no sense of humor.
I simply try to add a little (humor) to the discussion...and especially "balance". It seems that nearly all pilots are VERY anti-management. In actual fact, nearly all the companies that I have worked for over the years have been quite fair with their employees, but hey, maybe I was just lucky.
But, some of these guys are really easy to (dare I say it?) wind up...even a little bit, all in good fun of course.
Did fly DC-3's, but not over the rockies (ah...too cold) but down the Caribbean way. Puerto Rico to be exact, a very long time ago.
As I read thru the postings on PPRuNe, I find that many actually take themselves FAR to seriously, as in...no sense of humor.
I simply try to add a little (humor) to the discussion...and especially "balance". It seems that nearly all pilots are VERY anti-management. In actual fact, nearly all the companies that I have worked for over the years have been quite fair with their employees, but hey, maybe I was just lucky.
But, some of these guys are really easy to (dare I say it?) wind up...even a little bit, all in good fun of course.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
More than likely, Max Cont., you'll find that it is one or two MANAGERS who have CREATED the alienation of the majority of the workforce loyalties from MANAGEMENT.
It is not the Company, per se, with which pilots and other employees have a problem, but the occasional meglomaniac who feels a NEED to justify his overblown salary, and/or to try to gain further recognition or advancement, because of what he perceives will be seen as a "value-added" change.
Certainly, in the short term (and the modern world is one where instant gratification, or immediate results, are expected) there may well be a cost-saving - however, the P-off Factor which makes human nature respond, as is indicated by the text of "An Army of One (or 1,000, or 2,000, or 3,000)", is FAR MORE costly and destructive in the medium and long term.
Unfortunately it is the Company's revenue that is affected - but the ROOT CAUSE and REASON is the Management that did NOT think these affects through.
It IS possible to have a Company wherein Management and the workforce are synergistic, and the Company PROSPERS. Where sometimes tough Management decisions HAVE to be made - but sympathetic endorse and assist with their implementation.
The change in management "style" is obvious to almost ALL, M.C. - thus necessitating a change in the type of response from those being attacked by them, their own staff!
It is not the Company, per se, with which pilots and other employees have a problem, but the occasional meglomaniac who feels a NEED to justify his overblown salary, and/or to try to gain further recognition or advancement, because of what he perceives will be seen as a "value-added" change.
Certainly, in the short term (and the modern world is one where instant gratification, or immediate results, are expected) there may well be a cost-saving - however, the P-off Factor which makes human nature respond, as is indicated by the text of "An Army of One (or 1,000, or 2,000, or 3,000)", is FAR MORE costly and destructive in the medium and long term.
Unfortunately it is the Company's revenue that is affected - but the ROOT CAUSE and REASON is the Management that did NOT think these affects through.
It IS possible to have a Company wherein Management and the workforce are synergistic, and the Company PROSPERS. Where sometimes tough Management decisions HAVE to be made - but sympathetic endorse and assist with their implementation.
The change in management "style" is obvious to almost ALL, M.C. - thus necessitating a change in the type of response from those being attacked by them, their own staff!
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OK then 411A , the very best of luck to you. I'll look forward to reading more.
As it happens, I am not in need of a job. I have a very good one which involves not just flying, but training and (gasp!) management. I get the best (and worst) of three worlds.
Strangely, despite somehow getting involved in this thread, and taking a clear position (more for the sake of a decent discussion than anything else), I find myself unable to knowingly cost my company money. Some might suspect that comes from wearing a management hat, but the reason is simply that going out of your way to waste money (or not save it) ultimately has only one result- a reduction in pay and conditions.
In my company, the senior management team are motivated, clever people who know better than to upset ANY group of employees, within the constraints they operate under. Their management style is fairly transparent and a spade is called a spade. This would appear to be an increasingly rare situation, so perhaps I had better stay!
As it happens, I am not in need of a job. I have a very good one which involves not just flying, but training and (gasp!) management. I get the best (and worst) of three worlds.
Strangely, despite somehow getting involved in this thread, and taking a clear position (more for the sake of a decent discussion than anything else), I find myself unable to knowingly cost my company money. Some might suspect that comes from wearing a management hat, but the reason is simply that going out of your way to waste money (or not save it) ultimately has only one result- a reduction in pay and conditions.
In my company, the senior management team are motivated, clever people who know better than to upset ANY group of employees, within the constraints they operate under. Their management style is fairly transparent and a spade is called a spade. This would appear to be an increasingly rare situation, so perhaps I had better stay!
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A rare company indeed, Raw Data.
We are trying very hard to organise our group to be the most efficient yet generous to ALL employees...and shareholders, not an easy task. My forte is base and line training, and we will be doing a lot.
A very dedicated group of folks have been selected and have been very patient during the initial stage, which has stretched to nearly two years.
I certainly can understand however, with the problems that many pilots have with their often sometimes very shortsighted management. However, there are always two sides to every story, and i'm sure most management types would consider pilots in the "them vs us" catagory, likewise most flight crews' opinion of management.
Don't think this will change anytime soon, unfortunately.
We are trying very hard to organise our group to be the most efficient yet generous to ALL employees...and shareholders, not an easy task. My forte is base and line training, and we will be doing a lot.
A very dedicated group of folks have been selected and have been very patient during the initial stage, which has stretched to nearly two years.
I certainly can understand however, with the problems that many pilots have with their often sometimes very shortsighted management. However, there are always two sides to every story, and i'm sure most management types would consider pilots in the "them vs us" catagory, likewise most flight crews' opinion of management.
Don't think this will change anytime soon, unfortunately.
Union Goon
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411
Which operator on PR and how long ago did you fly DC-3s as I also long ago and far away flew DC-3s down there...
Come to think of it, one of my mates dissappeared into Arizona from there. You didn't happen to run a side business delivering newspapers did you? News2you? Had a few planes on the side?
If you recognize those words, you will figure out where my name here came from...
Cheers
Wino
Which operator on PR and how long ago did you fly DC-3s as I also long ago and far away flew DC-3s down there...
Come to think of it, one of my mates dissappeared into Arizona from there. You didn't happen to run a side business delivering newspapers did you? News2you? Had a few planes on the side?
If you recognize those words, you will figure out where my name here came from...
Cheers
Wino
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Any chance we can get this topic back to real issues and not use it as a forum for the Walter Mitty (hey - that's SPOOKY!
) dreams of a 'Wannabee Guvnor'?
PS Where do I enlist in the army? (Jus' ignore the signature below!!)
) dreams of a 'Wannabee Guvnor'?PS Where do I enlist in the army? (Jus' ignore the signature below!!)
I am a figment of my own imagination
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Reading through this lot and I thought I had strayed into Jet Blast. The poeticaly put 'P**s me off and I will cost you' is a fact of life we all live with.
Economys fluctuate and the best intentioned companies will find themselves in a situation where their policies will impinge on percieved personal limits.
F Gump summed it up with sh*t happens. If companies persue that course as a matter of policy the laws of supply and demand will eventualy kick in and the company suffers. The army of one becomes many.
Companies that look after their people tend to do better. But then life is not fair and a bit of a crap shoot at the best of times.
So whats the answer? If I knew I certainly wouldn't be here deciding if I agreed with " Army of One"!
( thinks...how many full stops have I put?)
Economys fluctuate and the best intentioned companies will find themselves in a situation where their policies will impinge on percieved personal limits.
F Gump summed it up with sh*t happens. If companies persue that course as a matter of policy the laws of supply and demand will eventualy kick in and the company suffers. The army of one becomes many.
Companies that look after their people tend to do better. But then life is not fair and a bit of a crap shoot at the best of times.
So whats the answer? If I knew I certainly wouldn't be here deciding if I agreed with " Army of One"!
( thinks...how many full stops have I put?)
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Well Capt Pit Bull they put the flaps out and the gear down and taxi it. During recurrent training they usually screw it up. I'm not saying that there will be no crew only that they needn't be 'pilots'.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Well, if you are correct, Carruthers there'll be no need for:
i) Crew schedulers;
ii) Met and and briefing ground staff;
iii) Far less LAME's;
iv) Check-in staff (ticketing and seat allocation will be fully automated);
v) Loaders - automated loading will be one of the FIRST innovations to be implemented;
vi) An HRD department!! Hooray!!;
vii) Tug drivers - as mentioned earlier;
viii) Cabin crew - I buy my Coke and hamburgers from machines now, and can read emergency instructions from a card or watch a video! ;
ix) Sky Marshalls;
x) sim instructors or checkers!! ;
xi) and far fewer beanos, because of far less staff;
I'm getting writer's cramp!!
But I somehow think that pilots will be quite a ways down the (partial) list above.
In fact you're RIGHT though, Cruthers - flying's such an EASY job that ANY mug can do it!
That's why there are soooo many experts here on PPRuNe - isn't it!?!
i) Crew schedulers;
ii) Met and and briefing ground staff;
iii) Far less LAME's;
iv) Check-in staff (ticketing and seat allocation will be fully automated);
v) Loaders - automated loading will be one of the FIRST innovations to be implemented;
vi) An HRD department!! Hooray!!;
vii) Tug drivers - as mentioned earlier;
viii) Cabin crew - I buy my Coke and hamburgers from machines now, and can read emergency instructions from a card or watch a video! ;
ix) Sky Marshalls;
x) sim instructors or checkers!! ;
xi) and far fewer beanos, because of far less staff;
I'm getting writer's cramp!!
But I somehow think that pilots will be quite a ways down the (partial) list above.
In fact you're RIGHT though, Cruthers - flying's such an EASY job that ANY mug can do it!
That's why there are soooo many experts here on PPRuNe - isn't it!?!
Last edited by Kaptin M; 12th Jun 2002 at 12:30.
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I am going to take heat for this one, but......
Flying is tough, but not something that only a few PPRUNERs can do. It's a learned skill and anybody can learn if they want. I would think the tough part is having the patience to sit in the same spot for 10 hours and not fall asleep or go crazy. So what if Carruthers knows nothing and wants to argue everything. Are we getting bored or something?
Flying is tough, but not something that only a few PPRUNERs can do. It's a learned skill and anybody can learn if they want. I would think the tough part is having the patience to sit in the same spot for 10 hours and not fall asleep or go crazy. So what if Carruthers knows nothing and wants to argue everything. Are we getting bored or something?
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Oh dear, Caruthers.
Seems you don't know very much about autolanding concepts.
The crew are part of the system. Organic, rather than silicon, but part of the system non-the-less.
The primary role of the crew is to monitor the approach and abort it if the automatic part of the system either fails or screws it up.
i.e. - and listen very carefully - autolands are only certifiable because of the presence of the pilots, not inspite of them.
Because if you think things get hairy when pilots screw up, you should see what failed automatics can do.
CPB
Seems you don't know very much about autolanding concepts.
The crew are part of the system. Organic, rather than silicon, but part of the system non-the-less.
The primary role of the crew is to monitor the approach and abort it if the automatic part of the system either fails or screws it up.
i.e. - and listen very carefully - autolands are only certifiable because of the presence of the pilots, not inspite of them.
Because if you think things get hairy when pilots screw up, you should see what failed automatics can do.
CPB
Hardly Never Not Unwilling
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I think it'll happen like this:
1. The US builds hundreds, then thousands of Global Hawks and derivatives to fight its air wars without risking aircrew. The technology grows.
2. Unmanned cargo carriage gets approval and widebody unmanned aircraft are developed for cargo applications.
3. The technology improves to the point where unmanned flight clearly becomes safer than piloted aircraft. The public is ultimately convinced.
How long will it take? I'd say 50 years or so. Pilots will be as obsolete as navigating by the stars. I don't like it. I don't want to see it happen. But the only way around it is if al-Qaida is successful in returning us to the 7th century.
1. The US builds hundreds, then thousands of Global Hawks and derivatives to fight its air wars without risking aircrew. The technology grows.
2. Unmanned cargo carriage gets approval and widebody unmanned aircraft are developed for cargo applications.
3. The technology improves to the point where unmanned flight clearly becomes safer than piloted aircraft. The public is ultimately convinced.
How long will it take? I'd say 50 years or so. Pilots will be as obsolete as navigating by the stars. I don't like it. I don't want to see it happen. But the only way around it is if al-Qaida is successful in returning us to the 7th century.
Carruthers
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747FOCAL;
My guess is that you've never tried to teach someone to fly a modern jet.
Yes its a learned skill, and yes you can probably train anyone to fly...if you have enough time and money (and patience).
In my training experience you find the vast majority of individuals can hack it within the allotted time span of a conversion course.
Some of them...the 'naturals'....seem to be gifted with 'an inate skill' that allows them to do it in half that time or even less (thery make me sick).
But its equally true that you occasionally find the odd sad individual who just cannot do it. No matter how hard you try, no matter how long they spend in the box...they'll just never get it.
And remember, these are usually people who've been carefully selected to have what are perceived to be 'the right skills'.
That says a lot to me about how the other 99.9% of the general populace might perform if given a try out.
It's a learned skill and anybody can learn if they want.
Yes its a learned skill, and yes you can probably train anyone to fly...if you have enough time and money (and patience).
In my training experience you find the vast majority of individuals can hack it within the allotted time span of a conversion course.
Some of them...the 'naturals'....seem to be gifted with 'an inate skill' that allows them to do it in half that time or even less (thery make me sick).
But its equally true that you occasionally find the odd sad individual who just cannot do it. No matter how hard you try, no matter how long they spend in the box...they'll just never get it.
And remember, these are usually people who've been carefully selected to have what are perceived to be 'the right skills'.
That says a lot to me about how the other 99.9% of the general populace might perform if given a try out.