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Turkish A330 incident, Kathmandu

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Turkish A330 incident, Kathmandu

Old 13th Apr 2015, 17:38
  #241 (permalink)  
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aterpster :

I agree fully , the hint was in my last sentence.
LAX is not KTM ,and the 300 USD/month local TWR controller is not going to challenge the authority that issued the NOTAM and who apparently thought a 400ft displaced threshold was no problem for the RNAV procedure , and is also not going to challenge the crew of a TK A330 who apparently agreed to perform that approach.

Somewhere down the line it would appear that very few people understand what " AR " really means, and I include myself in this.
But that said, I do not think one of the main cause of this accident was the displaced threshold.
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Old 14th Apr 2015, 02:09
  #242 (permalink)  
 
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ATC watcher:

Somewhere down the line it would appear that very few people understand what " AR " really means, and I include myself in this.
No doubt about that. But, the crew was, or should have been, trained to understand it. Same for the aviation authority of Nepal. (although the approach was probably designed by experts outside of Nepal and, in fact, the aviation authority of Nepal may not have understood it, at least not as to the important nuances.)

But that said, I do not think one of the main cause of this accident was the displaced threshold.
Probably not. But, then again the illusions created by the airplane being in a vertical position in space at DA to land on a runway 400 feet closer could have been a contributing factor. hypothetical: "Reduce your descent, Captain, we are too low."
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Old 14th Apr 2015, 05:36
  #243 (permalink)  
 
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aterpster:

then again the illusions created by the airplane being in a vertical position in space at DA to land on a runway 400 feet closer could have been a contributing factor.
"illusion" implies you can see the object concerned - in this case the runway. In this case the aircraft descended into fog (see previous posted video clip). I will not even discuss "slant visibility" and its effect on "forward visibility" as this is basic knowledge.

ATC watcher:

Exactly - welcome to the real world - not the 1st world.

JammedStab:

Help prevent a repeat accident by telling us what happened. By not doing so, you could be one of the holes in the Swiss cheese if it happens again
By ignoring just about every basic rule/regulation regarding the IFR, including but not limited to:

1. Flight Planning (Dispatch)
a. Alternate requirements
b. Fuel Requirements
i. holding fuel
ii. minimum fuel [including minimum divert fuel]

2. Holding and Instrument Approach to Land Procedures
a. Meteorological minima for the approach

3. Aerodrome Meteorological Minima
a. Landing Minima
b. Low visibility operations/procedures (application of such procedures)
c. Application of Aerodrome Meteorological Minima
i. Pilot responsibilities
ii. ATC assessment

In short, the PIC may have had all these cards in their hand but due to the decision making processes, for what ever reason, discarded them one-by-one until there was nil other alternative/option other than to land in such weather conditions by conducting a Low Visibility Operation (LVO) autoland onto a runway that, as aterpster has pointed out, was NOTAM'ed with a displaced threshold, which is a lesser issue than that of the runway, itself, was not to the equipment/facility standard required to conduct such a landing in LVO conditions.

The belief that an RNAV/RNP, RNAV/GNSS approach makes you bullet proof is a fantasy that has invaded the profession. As discussions with 7478ti have disclosed, there is so much more that has to be in place to conduct these approaches to a CATII, CATIIIa/b minima/standard both in the airborne equipment and training of aircrew to the ground based facilities and training of ATC.

As an example compare the VOR and RNAV/GNSS approach minima to RWY 35 at OEMA.

This "accident" will no doubt be used, in the future, as a valuable lesson in CRM and application of SOP, Rules and Procedures and how they are incorporated into the decision making process of pilots.
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Old 14th Apr 2015, 14:55
  #244 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FO Cokebottle View Post

JammedStab:

By ignoring just about every basic rule/regulation regarding the IFR, including but not limited to:

1. Flight Planning (Dispatch)
a. Alternate requirements
b. Fuel Requirements
i. holding fuel
ii. minimum fuel [including minimum divert fuel]

2. Holding and Instrument Approach to Land Procedures
a. Meteorological minima for the approach

3. Aerodrome Meteorological Minima
a. Landing Minima
b. Low visibility operations/procedures (application of such procedures)
c. Application of Aerodrome Meteorological Minima
i. Pilot responsibilities
ii. ATC assessment

In short, the PIC may have had all these cards in their hand but due to the decision making processes, for what ever reason, discarded them one-by-one until there was nil other alternative/option other than to land in such weather conditions by conducting a Low Visibility Operation (LVO) autoland onto a runway that, as aterpster has pointed out, was NOTAM'ed with a displaced threshold, which is a lesser issue than that of the runway, itself, was not to the equipment/facility standard required to conduct such a landing in LVO conditions.
Not sure I understand. I heard they held for quite a while due to poor weather. Did they hold for such a long time that they could no longer get to their alternate? Was their alternate New Delhi which has CAT III?
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Old 14th Apr 2015, 15:04
  #245 (permalink)  
 
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Olbie:


Not sure why people are going after each other regarding the approach category?

There are Cat C and Cat D variants of the A330 just as there are Cat C and Cat D variants of the A321.
Thanks for that clarification. So, the accident airplane may have been Cat D. That affects both DA and visibility minimum on this approach.
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Old 14th Apr 2015, 15:26
  #246 (permalink)  
 
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Google before you post!!!!!!

There is NO 330 certified as CAT D in the world!!!!

http://www.airbus.com/fileadmin/medi...at-Feb2013.pdf
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Old 14th Apr 2015, 15:40
  #247 (permalink)  
 
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Olbie

Please show us a Cat D A330
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Old 14th Apr 2015, 22:57
  #248 (permalink)  
 
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Probably confusing approach speed category (which is C for A330) with wake turbulence category (which is heavy) ...
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Old 14th Apr 2015, 23:44
  #249 (permalink)  
 
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runsick / johnpilot

Perhaps it also depends upon the OPERATOR, my A330 uses CAT D. Do you operate the A330 or do you just google it?
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Old 15th Apr 2015, 00:17
  #250 (permalink)  
 
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A lot of FKAs here.

As far as I know, the A330 is categorized as Cat C for normal operations. ICAO and FAA.

However in non normal operations with approach speeds above 140 kts, or for circling approaches at speeds above 140 kts, we are obliged to conform to Cat D restrictions. Just my 2cents.
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Old 15th Apr 2015, 07:00
  #251 (permalink)  
 
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What iceman might be referring to... it appears some operators (including a certain Hong Kong based one) require their pilots to consider all of their large aircraft as Category D from an approach minima perspective -- regardless of their actual approach speeds -- to be more conservative/restrictive than regulation allows.
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Old 15th Apr 2015, 10:32
  #252 (permalink)  
 
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Iceman

So, what was you approach speed on your last landing? I just did one an hour ago. Config 3 vapp 137. That is what defines the airplane category. Yes or no?

Now if what you meant to say is that your operator uses its own criteria for that, well, what can I say. Thats a whole different story. One thing is your operator, another the aircraft and its approach speed.
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Old 15th Apr 2015, 10:35
  #253 (permalink)  
 
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Just as I advised Iceman earlier that indeed all 330 are not CAT D , I would caution against being dogmatic that all ARE CAT C . Airbus has a habit of doing different things for different operators and there are several higher landing weight versions ( 343, 342 ) ,engine & airframe combinations that may be certified CAT D .With AIrbus , you just never know . You can verify what you operate , Iceman says his are CAT D . I would leave it at that .

Regarding non normal configuration & circling minima , under PansOPS , as far as I know , there is no obligation to move up a category based on actual approach speed / configuration . The approach category criteria is based upon certified approach category ( Stall speed ratio in landing config at Max landing mass) . However maybe TERPS and your company apply different .
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Old 15th Apr 2015, 11:00
  #254 (permalink)  
 
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Chaps, Iceman and all.

Certification of an aircraft is final. The FAA and EASA have certified the airbus 330 as a Category C aircraft. This cannot change because an operator decides to classify it as a CAT D aircraft for operational reasons.

The airlines in the fragrant harbour have categorised the aircraft as CAT C for straight in approaches and CAT D for circle to land.

This is because the speed during the circle to land at max landing weight with Auto-Thrust ON is on the threshold of CAT D speeds, while airbus have certified it as CAT C even for circling to land because they don/t need to use the A/THR ON. (5 Kts makes all the difference).

The airline in question operates the aircraft as a CAT C aircraft. Standard practice for EASA compliant countries.

I trust this makes sense and clarifies the difference between certification category and operational classification by an airline. The link I provided earlier has the certification categories of all airbus aircraft.

Iceman I do fly the 330/340
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Old 15th Apr 2015, 11:03
  #255 (permalink)  
 
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Ahhhhh me brain hurts..

Say what you will but our HK company OPS A manual stipulate we are to consider ALL of our Aircraft as CAT D for published minimas......End of story full stop.
Next
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Old 15th Apr 2015, 13:00
  #256 (permalink)  
 
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An operator via its own CAA approval has the right to INCREASE its aircraft category...ie from C to D...(as john wrote ,for operational classification only)
However crews arent allowed to reduce their minima to lower Category based on actual landing speed.
For example,your aircraft is CAT C but you land empty ,and get a lower Vref equal to CAT B then you cant use cat B minima.
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Old 15th Apr 2015, 13:38
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John , nothing is final in aviation and if one really wants to be pedantic then if it's in their OMA then it is certified .

Curious to know what speed you circle at with a 330 at max landing weight .
As you state strongly , the approach category is certified i.e fixed , so why change the category if you circle close to CAT D threshold . Seems you are in favour of changing from CAT C to D for "operational reasons " when it suits you .

Curiously enough , I know of at least one carrier which alters the max takeoff mass of their A321's depending on the sector it is flying to take advantage of the Landing fee's . Guess what , it miraculously loses 4 tons on these sectors with the flip of a placard in the cockpit , just saying ..with Airbus you get what you pay for .

BTW , follow the thread before you freak out !!!! I posted that link you claim in post 238 .
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Old 15th Apr 2015, 14:29
  #258 (permalink)  
 
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This is what the FAA has to say about it:

5−4−7. Instrument Approach Procedures

a. Aircraft approach category means a grouping of aircraft based on a speed of VREF, if specified, or if VREF is not specified, 1.3 VSO at the maximum certified landing weight. VREF, VSO, and the maximum certified landing weight are those values as established for the aircraft by the certification authority of the country of registry. A pilot must use the minima corresponding to the category determined during certification or higher. Helicopters may use Category A minima. If it is necessary to operate at a speed in excess of the upper limit of the speed range for an aircraft’s category, the minimums for the higher category must be used. For example, an airplane which fits into Category B, but is circling to land at a speed of 145 knots, must use the approach Category D minimums. As an additional example, a Category A airplane (or helicopter) which is operating at 130 knots on a straight−in approach must use the approach Category C minimums.
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Old 15th Apr 2015, 15:19
  #259 (permalink)  
 
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Can't disagree with you ATP . I know the FAA/Terps circling criteria is much more restrictive , (don't know the exact numbers as I don't need them ), hence perhaps the need to "up" it .

PansOps :
Circling Speed : CAT C 180 knots max ,
CAT D 205 knot max .
Circling radii : CAT C 4.20 nm
CAT D 5.28 nm .

Hence the point some are trying to make , different strokes ..
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Old 15th Apr 2015, 15:29
  #260 (permalink)  
 
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Folks,
Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons, I can nominate at least one major and well known airline that does, in fact, have approval to operate Cat. D aircraft to Cat. C PANS/OPS criteria in selected cases ---- with the obvious restriction being that Cat. C speeds must be flown.
I know this to be the case, because I worked for them for years, and have flown the procedures more times than I care to remember, sometimes twice a day.
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