TransAsia in the water?
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Exactly...."what, you don't know the diameter of the prop", "you don't know the climb gradient at max weight on a standard day with one engine inoperative", "you are not aware of the prop blade angle at a certain station when feathered"....obviously you are not qualified to fly the aircraft.
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Critical engine training by rote - very good point!
And what about the "alleged" pilot training in a sim with no operating rudder pedals? Has this been verified as being fact?
And what about the "alleged" pilot training in a sim with no operating rudder pedals? Has this been verified as being fact?
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I got asked a ridiculous question like that once. Without missing a beat I answered "All of them or I will ground the aircraft". He smirked a little and went to the next question.
N4790P
And what about the "alleged" pilot training in a sim with no operating rudder pedals? Has this been verified as being fact?
So whilst not verified as untrue, now seems highly unlikely.
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Can somebody explain or offer some conjecture on why they initially reduced the PLA on #1 by only 10 degrees and then waited? Is that per the drill on a t-prop, improvised on the spot to investigate/verify?
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I'm a 61 year-old 757 captain with absolutely no intimate knowledge of the ATR.. I have had a few glasses of red wine as I post this so please excuse me.. I have always been aware of the fact that the most likely things that will kill you as you try to make your way in aviation are propellers or altimetry.. this is unfortunately borne out as true depressingly often.. I flew left seat in the C130 in the RAF and in the Fokker F27 as my first type after I left the air force so I know what it is like to operate propeller driven aeroplanes... all I'm saying is please let's cut these poor guys some slack until we know the truth.. if they messed it up then so be it but let's not crucify them prematurely... a lot of the posters here have been intelligent in their analyses but let's please just wait for the official reports before we pass judgement.. I'm not saying that people are being unfair on here merely that we need to wait until the truth be known.. and hopefully lessons will be learned... in this business we never stop learning do we ...
Last edited by Smudger; 12th Feb 2015 at 23:37.
Well said Smudger but I'm afraid you have no chance of that here.
Humble, competent, professional aviators would never be so quick to judge their peers with such a lack of information and when we do have the information, we tend to take the lessons learnt onboard.
Many people that post here are just not like this. Many are not professionals.
Humble, competent, professional aviators would never be so quick to judge their peers with such a lack of information and when we do have the information, we tend to take the lessons learnt onboard.
Many people that post here are just not like this. Many are not professionals.
Smudger and OzSync,
You are both so right. I flew for many years as a line pilot, training captain and flight manager. Much of our time was spent pouring over other people's accidents to see what we could learn and then to adapt our procedures and training routines as appropriate.
I note that many posters on Prune have considerable expertise, not only as pilots but also as trainers, accident investigators, engineers and software designers, etc. Their analyses are helpful and constructive. They illuminate many little known aspects of our profession and are to be welcomed.
But there are others who either know little about real aviation or who jump to inappropriate conclusions and comments. Please don't! Please take care not to besmirch the reputations of fellow aviators who are in no position to defend themselves. And please spare a thought for their relatives, friends and colleagues before rushing to judgement.
You are both so right. I flew for many years as a line pilot, training captain and flight manager. Much of our time was spent pouring over other people's accidents to see what we could learn and then to adapt our procedures and training routines as appropriate.
I note that many posters on Prune have considerable expertise, not only as pilots but also as trainers, accident investigators, engineers and software designers, etc. Their analyses are helpful and constructive. They illuminate many little known aspects of our profession and are to be welcomed.
But there are others who either know little about real aviation or who jump to inappropriate conclusions and comments. Please don't! Please take care not to besmirch the reputations of fellow aviators who are in no position to defend themselves. And please spare a thought for their relatives, friends and colleagues before rushing to judgement.
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I for one do not mind the ongoing speculation, though with every accident thread I think we reach the point where there is nothing more useful that can be gleaned or concluded from the patchy leaked information. I think we've passed that point here, but no doubt the discussion will continue.
For those concerned about premature criticism and judgement on the pilots actions, we should bear in mind that none of this judgement carries any weight whatsoever.
For those concerned about premature criticism and judgement on the pilots actions, we should bear in mind that none of this judgement carries any weight whatsoever.
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Yes, there is much uninformed drivel on most web sites, however the root problem is getting little coverage in this PC age we live in. Let me explain, on my retirement from the heavy metal I was contacted by a recruiter to teach at a major Asian airline, so I went to look at their operation and in doing so sat through a few of their sim rides, what I saw was totally unbeliveable! The rides totally ignored basic flying skills and were so scripted that if the exercise called for say a cargo fire, the candidate had to be informed just which cargo hold the fire was to be in, if one switched the fire location it was considered "unfair" and if they scewed it up {which they did} it was struck from the file, and so it went on during every sim session I witnesed, I could go on for hours recounting what I saw in their training department, but there is no way these crews were up to standard, if one then factors in the cultural problems,{the captain is a God} there will be many more of these sad events. When I declined the position their answer was to offer more money, no critical observations were tolerated. Yes, I know Im non -PC, but Im too old to change!
Last edited by clunckdriver; 13th Feb 2015 at 15:22.
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Maybe if enough people like clunck who are qualified to observe that these airlines are not up to standard continue to offer solid examples like this, it will be picked up by the media. If pax vote with their feet and avoid these carriers as a result, things might improve.
'Ang on. A pig just flew past the window. But at least it knows how!
'Ang on. A pig just flew past the window. But at least it knows how!
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During my 60 years as a professional aviator, both military and civil (QFI and FI) and, finally designing and running an MCC course I have trained a great number of nationalities from all parts of the world. I fully concur with all that Smudge and Clunk have posted. I won't bore you with any examples, but I agree it is frightening.
Pontifex, Smudge and Clunck,
I don't doubt that what you have seen is correct. I have seen something similar. In which case it it the management and regulators who are to blame.
I don't doubt that what you have seen is correct. I have seen something similar. In which case it it the management and regulators who are to blame.
Maybe pontifex, clunkdriver, smudge and others should PM each other so that they can team up to contact the authorities / the press. Would be another contribution to flight safety.
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Maybe if enough people like clunck who are qualified to observe that these airlines are not up to standard continue to offer solid examples like this, it will be picked up by the media. If pax vote with their feet and avoid these carriers as a result, things might improve.
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Fox..
Thank you for your confidence but I'm afraid if we did as you suggest it would fall on deaf ears anyway.. all the press are interested in is selling papers so if it hasn't crashed yet it's not newsworthy.. as for the authorities well where do we start...it's a huge problem and to be honest I don't think there will be a solution anytime soon... just choose who you fly with very carefully.
Thank you for your confidence but I'm afraid if we did as you suggest it would fall on deaf ears anyway.. all the press are interested in is selling papers so if it hasn't crashed yet it's not newsworthy.. as for the authorities well where do we start...it's a huge problem and to be honest I don't think there will be a solution anytime soon... just choose who you fly with very carefully.
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Hotel Tango ... some SLF read PPRuNe and know exactly which airlines to avoid. This SLF does not, and will not, set foot on any minor Asian carrier [and even some big ones].
The message is actually clearly out there in the media, if people have the wit to read and interpret, instead of going "awwww, that was awful".
We value our remaining years.
The message is actually clearly out there in the media, if people have the wit to read and interpret, instead of going "awwww, that was awful".
We value our remaining years.
Last edited by MPN11; 14th Feb 2015 at 13:17. Reason: Typos
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foxniner
the press is aware. but tell me, what method would you use to prove it, to fully protect your company and you from libel suits?
you can't just say: some guy on pprune says this and that.
and don't think you can get into trans asia's training program with cameras, recorders etc.
you can watch, glean and prepare for the next one.
the press is aware. but tell me, what method would you use to prove it, to fully protect your company and you from libel suits?
you can't just say: some guy on pprune says this and that.
and don't think you can get into trans asia's training program with cameras, recorders etc.
you can watch, glean and prepare for the next one.
If this is simply as it appears... Autofeather #2 (perhaps ATPCS error, doesn't matter) followed by crew pulling torque off and eventually shutting down the operating engine, then the lesson to be learnt is very simple.
Why the #### are these things being shutdown close to the ground? At one turboprop operator I worked for, they were adamant the shutdown with a V1 failure was to be done at acceleration - sometimes as low as 500'. It was mind bogglingly stupid, but it still happens in turboprop sims the world over.
The only reason a shutdown should be actioned so low is for engine failure followed by failure to auto feather (a desperate situation indeed, yet one which had NEVER occurred since type certificate issue, worldwide, on the airframe I used to fly).
The case of a fire may also warrant an immediate shutdown, but should be with fire handle and fire handle alone.
Manipulating power levers and fuel shutoffs just after takeoff when one propeller has auto feathered and the aircraft is still completely climb-able and controllable is just nuts.
That's why these damn things have auto feather in the first place.
If it's climbing, sit on your hands and keep it flying. Anything and everything else can wait.
I hope desperately this was not a case of shutting down the only engine which was developing power.
Why the #### are these things being shutdown close to the ground? At one turboprop operator I worked for, they were adamant the shutdown with a V1 failure was to be done at acceleration - sometimes as low as 500'. It was mind bogglingly stupid, but it still happens in turboprop sims the world over.
The only reason a shutdown should be actioned so low is for engine failure followed by failure to auto feather (a desperate situation indeed, yet one which had NEVER occurred since type certificate issue, worldwide, on the airframe I used to fly).
The case of a fire may also warrant an immediate shutdown, but should be with fire handle and fire handle alone.
Manipulating power levers and fuel shutoffs just after takeoff when one propeller has auto feathered and the aircraft is still completely climb-able and controllable is just nuts.
That's why these damn things have auto feather in the first place.
If it's climbing, sit on your hands and keep it flying. Anything and everything else can wait.
I hope desperately this was not a case of shutting down the only engine which was developing power.